Replaying moves and the patch

[SGT Rice]

Echoing McIvan's earlier comment: simply counting saves doesn't tell you anything about whether an opponent is cheating. The difference between the number of times a a game file is loaded and the number of times it is saved is the 'metric' you need.

Another Matrix title - Gary Grigsby's World at War, A World Divided -has a Load Counter that performs this useful function. When a game file is loaded (you open your turn) the counter goes from 0 to 1. When you save your turn for any reason (dogs, food, children, naked women, etc.) the counter is reduced from 1 to 0. But if you exit the turn WITHOUT SAVING (i.e., after experiencing a negative outcome that you wish to avoid) then the load counter does not reduce to 0; it remains at 1.

A load counter of this type would flag the numerous types of replay cheats that Jason identified previously by increasing the load count; it takes no notice of innocent file saving activity. If I read correctly, Jason indicated that something like this is intended for version 1.04? If so it would alleviate much angst all the way round.

[Wolfman]

Echoing McIvan's earlier comment: simply counting saves doesn't tell you anything about whether an opponent is cheating. The difference between the number of times a a game file is loaded and the number of times it is saved is the 'metric' you need.

Another Matrix title - Gary Grigsby's World at War, A World Divided -has a Load Counter that performs this useful function. When a game file is loaded (you open your turn) the counter goes from 0 to 1. When you save your turn for any reason (dogs, food, children, naked women, etc.) the counter is reduced from 1 to 0. But if you exit the turn WITHOUT SAVING (i.e., after experiencing a negative outcome that you wish to avoid) then the load counter does not reduce to 0; it remains at 1.

A load counter of this type would flag the numerous types of replay cheats that Jason identified previously by increasing the load count; it takes no notice of innocent file saving activity. If I read correctly, Jason indicated that something like this is intended for version 1.04? If so it would alleviate much angst all the way round.

This sounds like the perfect soloution to any problems that this thread has illustrated. The only problem I can forsee here is that if you have a useless piece of cr** of a PC that crashes regularly (like me) would that alter the counter, or would it only alter if you actually exited the game without saving as opposed to having an abnormal termination of the turn?

[Huib Versloot]

It may not be perfect but I'm happy with the save game counter. People simply have to adapt their habits and only save the game when they have to (when the screensaver ruined the graphics for example). I find it not at all convincing that this would lead to more then 2 or 3 saves per turn. I've played over 300 games and I don't think I ever saved a turn more than twice. Let alone turn after turn.
I would stop playing anyone who saves his turn more than twice turn after turn (exclusive team games ofcourse). It is something you can discuss in the ROE prior to starting.

Huib

[Remko van den Berg]

in my opinion let's put it this way
i consider 5 saves or more as cheating, if you "need" to save more often then this in high complexity games (10 or higher ) then you obviously don't have the time to play, then don't play at all

i rather have you to reload the turn more often (although that is cheating too , but much harder to prove )

i think that you can play a high complexity game within 45 minutes
without making big mistakes

but if other members don't agree with me then propose a vote
and that the outcome will be added as to the 'rules of engagement'

with kind regards
Remko van den Berg

[Richardew]

This sounds like the perfect soloution to any problems that this thread has illustrated.

There is no "perfect" solution. How many days/weeks did it take a smart high school kid to crack the Apple's IPHONE code? A player could always copy a file multiple times, scout out the opponent and then play the turn until getting the desired result. I don't see anything that will detect and prevent this. There will never be a way to detect a clever cheater. I think that this is a community that is trustworthy. Win or lose, I enjoy playing. There is no point to cheating. Nothing is gained.

[Hawk Kriegsman]

This sounds like the perfect soloution to any problems that this thread has illustrated. The only problem I can forsee here is that if you have a useless piece of cr** of a PC that crashes regularly (like me) would that alter the counter, or would it only alter if you actually exited the game without saving as opposed to having an abnormal termination of the turn?

HA! You are not alone in the crappy outdated PC world! I cannot get a new one approved from the supply officer (ie the long haired general).

Thanx!

[Hawk Kriegsman]

It may not be perfect but I'm happy with the save game counter. People simply have to adapt their habits and only save the game when they have to (when the screensaver ruined the graphics for example). I find it not at all convincing that this would lead to more then 2 or 3 saves per turn. I've played over 300 games and I don't think I ever saved a turn more than twice. Let alone turn after turn.
I would stop playing anyone who saves his turn more than twice turn after turn (exclusive team games ofcourse). It is something you can discuss in the ROE prior to starting.

Huib

Well I have played over 1,000 games and on occasion I have saved often. Saving is not an indication of cheating.

Let's say that you send me a turn. Let's take a look.

Example A: I will save after every single move and return it to you accepting the dice as they fall. The save counter shows you a warning for 50 saves.

Example B: I will only save at the end of the turn, but every time that I get a result I don't like I will exit with out saving and replay the turn. I replay the turn 50 times getting what I feel to be an optimal turn on the 50th try. You get no save counter warning.

In which example did I cheat?

The save counter tells you nothing.

Thanx!

[Hawk Kriegsman]

in my opinion let's put it this way
i consider 5 saves or more as cheating, if you "need" to save more often then this in high complexity games (10 or higher ) then you obviously don't have the time to play, then don't play at all

This is a pretty poor attitude IMHO.

Are you married? If so is your wife a diabetic? Do you have a dog who barks to go out as soon as you sit down? Do you have cats that like to lay on the keyboard while you are gone? Do you have a developmentally disabled son who could need attention at a moments notice? Do you have a crappy computer prone to locking up and / or shutting down?

If you answered yes to any of those then you will understand the need to save often. I have played the most CS matches to date on the board (and I have only been here since July 2003) so time is not an issue.

i rather have you to reload the turn more often (although that is cheating too , but much harder to prove )

So instead of saving you advocate cheating? Makes no sense.

i think that you can play a high complexity game within 45 minutes without making big mistakes

With no interruptions your time is accurate.

but if other members don't agree with me then propose a vote
and that the outcome will be added as to the 'rules of engagement'

Saving is not an issue. It has never to the best of my knowledge been discussed in the 5 years that I have been here, so now that there is a save counter it is an issue?

I think not!

Thanx!

[Huib Versloot]

It may not be perfect but I'm happy with the save game counter. People simply have to adapt their habits and only save the game when they have to (when the screensaver ruined the graphics for example). I find it not at all convincing that this would lead to more then 2 or 3 saves per turn. I've played over 300 games and I don't think I ever saved a turn more than twice. Let alone turn after turn.
I would stop playing anyone who saves his turn more than twice turn after turn (exclusive team games ofcourse). It is something you can discuss in the ROE prior to starting.

Huib

Well I have played over 1,000 games and on occasion I have saved often. Saving is not an indication of cheating.

Let's say that you send me a turn. Let's take a look.

Example A: I will save after every single move and return it to you accepting the dice as they fall. The save counter shows you a warning for 50 saves.

Example B: I will only save at the end of the turn, but every time that I get a result I don't like I will exit with out saving and replay the turn. I replay the turn 50 times getting what I feel to be an optimal turn on the 50th try. You get no save counter warning.

In which example did I cheat?

The save counter tells you nothing.

Thanx!

It is no use bringing this down to a theoretical discourse. Like I said: it is not perfect. Still there is no need to save more than twice turn after turn. Arguments for that are far sought and not convincing. I have 7 cats btw, and they're all mentally ill and need constant attention.... or at least they act that way. Nevertheless I never had to save my turns very often. Putting your screensaver on an hour or so might also help...

Huib

[Hawk Kriegsman]

It is no use bringing this down to a theoretical discourse.

Then refrain form issuing statements like:

I would stop playing anyone who saves his turn more than twice turn after turn

Like I said: it is not perfect.

No it is perfect for counting the number of saves and totally useless to determine cheating.

Still there is no need to save more than twice turn after turn.

In you opinion.

I can see many people saving once after the artillery resolution, once half way through and once at the end. Especially in big scenarios.

Arguments for that are far sought and not convincing.

Again in your opinion.

Nevertheless I never had to save my turns very often.

And I on occasion have.

Putting your screensaver on an hour or so might also help...

It's set for 15 minutes. But if I have to get up for any reason while I am playing a turn I save it. I don't exit the screen I just hit save.

Thanx!