Attacking

[Colonel Talvela]

Actually I pretty much admitted it was "bogus" in the thread above, since I said that it was a " bad idea - dont ever do this". However, I disagree that is in any less valid than the test in post #42. I dont see how this situation is any less likely than that one, because you should never have a group of infantry just sitting in open ground. However, if somebody doesnt think that is true (about inf in open ground), then the test is valid.

the other test simulates a good possible situation of a platoon holding a position VS several platoons advancing.

If test #42 is about what you described, then it is a bad test, because that would not be the way to do it. MTC in open ground with an entire company to advance and take a VL is not a good way to go.

Edit: Removed a follow on question in response to a statement made in post #60, which was itself editted, making the follow up irrelevant.

[PoorOldSpike]

If there's one thing I've learnt from years of conducting CM tests, its that testing is often a highly-complex procedure and must be carefully thought out beforehand, you can't just throw something together in 5 minutes otherwise the results aren't worth a spit.
For example I first had a shot at doing infantry movement tests last year but it was a complete disaster because the results in no way tallied with what I'd seen happening on the battlefield in all my years of playing CM.
Clearly something was wrong, so I went back to the drawing board and analysed all the many factors involved and set up experiments in the editor to try to get to the bottom of it.

My Infantry Movement tests in post #42 (although looking straightforward and simple) therefore represent at least a year of careful analysis and thinking things out, plus a series of experiments etc in the editor, and years of actual in-game observations and playing experience on top of that.
Testing certainly gives us a greater insight into the subtleties of the CM system as there's a 'butterflies wing' effect involved which means changing just one small thing can have a knock-on effect and disrupt and unbalance the whole test, hence the need to carefully plan out everything beforehand.

As regards Move to Contact, of course it sounds bad to say units stop in open ground when shot at, but technically there is no "open ground" in CM because infantry units still get 25% cover! (see chart below and do the maths)..:)
That mirrors realism of course, because real-life troops in so-called 'open ground' will often dive behind a clump of grass or tiny fold in the ground when shot at, to get a bit of cover.
I've been regularly using MtC in 7 years of CM playing in 700 ladder games and it's done me no harm at all.
In fact as I write this, a silver trophy sits in the backgound on top of my hi-fi bearing the inscription "Poor Old Spike, No.1 Rugged Defense Ladder, CMBB 2003". The proof of the pudding as they say...
What more 'credentials' can I offer people to assure them that my way of playing CM is the right way?
To noobs I'd say- you stick with your Uncle Spike and i'll teach you to kill, then when you begin racing up the ladders I can think with pride "That's my boy, you're a soldier now!"

PS- Look, no unit is ever 100% exposed, even in 'open ground', so my advice to noobs is this- Never fear to use Move to Contact, let the fear be your enemies..;)

[Ratzki]

Moving a platoon of infantry across open ground vs a hidden foe in good cover at short range really only proves one thing, if the flag is absolutely a must to win the game and this is the only route possible to take, ASSULT is the best way to cover the open ground. I think this test is too much of a test-tube, and there is no real aplication for it. I think we all know to keep to cover or better, out of LOS while moving. It is that first contact with the enemy where the rubber meets the road. If I am moving through cover all the way then MTC is the way to go if the enemy location is unknown. Otherwise RUN, if you suspect that your men will not take any fire or the fire they will take is from extreme range or you move across well defended open ground is not too far. Advance is your best chance of covering some ground under some good enemy fire. Your men might go PINNED but they will not take a hit and turn tail easy. If you have to get to a point, reguardless of losses, ASSUALT.
I think a better measure would be to have a sqaud move in all the modes and see how many losses it takes after each shot from the enemy.

[Chipmunk]

As regards Move to Contact, of course it sounds bad to say units stop in open ground when shot at, but technically there is no "open ground" in CM because infantry units still get 25% cover! (see chart below and do the maths)..:)

It should be mentioned though that infantry in open that take fire will go crawling off towards cover, and not necessarily the closest clump either. So despite the fact that you are given some protection in open ground for this reason it is inferior to other types of cover.

[Colonel Talvela]

For example I first had a shot at doing infantry movement tests last year but it was a complete disaster because the results in no way tallied with what I'd seen happening on the battlefield in all my years of playing CM.
Clearly something was wrong, so I went back to the drawing board and analysed all the many factors involved and set up experiments in the editor to try to get to the bottom of it.

I'd be interested in seeing some of those test results. Have them still?

[Ratzki]

I ran the first of a couple of tests that I will do. Germans had covered arcs to 230m. The Russian platoons moved in command using from left to right-Move To Contact, Move, Run, Advance, Assualt was too far away to be used for what I thought would be it's intended purpose. Each German squad was allowed 4 shots and I recorded the hits on Russian squads.
The results:
MTC squads moved to within 200m of the enemy.
They took 2 hits.
All squads in good shape and could continue.

MOVE squads moved to within 200m of the enemy.
They took 4 hits.
Most squads in good shape with only 1 squad PINNED, so to continue is possible but there will be a delay due to the PINNED squad.

RUN squads moved to within 180m of the enemy.
They took 5 hits.
HQ eliminated. (at end of turn)
All squads PINNED or PANIC. No way this platoon can continue.

ADVANCE squads moved to within 150m of the enemy.
They took 5 hits.
1/2 the squads are PINNED the others stopped moving but are in good shape, they would probably get up and start advancing again if I let the turn play out, so to continue is possible but there will be a delay due to the PINNED squads.

I ran this test a few times with this being a typical result. I would say that MTC had the fewest men hit but only because the platoon stops moving at a long range when contact is made. RUN and MOVE faired the worst as the men continued to move and moved not using the terrain for the best advantage. As stated open ground does give some cover if used, and these two moves do not use the cover effectively. ADVANCE worked as well, as even though the squads took more hits, they gained an extra 50m over the MTC and are still in good shape to keep moving.

[Kelen]

:soap: As I've said elsewhere, I'm had limited exprience with CMAK and therefore limited experience with the MTC order. However, it would appear to me that the tests presented so far to demonstrate its superiority over other orders are flawed.

The reasons for this is this are:
a) They all pit troops in the open advancing against unknown, hidden troops to their fore. As has already been said, good commanders wouldn't do this without scouting first.
b) The tests do not give the advancing troops any support. Again, no commander worth their salt would send a platoon, let alone a whole company, into unknown terrain without ordering other units to give them supporting fire; either by area fire as they advance in order to keep any potential defenders heads down, or on overwatch so that they will return fire should an unseen enemy open up.

In either case the defenders shouldn't have total surprise and if they do manage it they they shouldn't be able to bring their full firepower to bear against the advancing units for any length of time.

[Ratzki]

b) The tests do not give the advancing troops any support. Again, no commander worth their salt would send a platoon, let alone a whole company, into unknown terrain without ordering other units to give them supporting fire; either by area fire as they advance in order to keep any potential defenders heads down, or on overwatch so that they will return fire should an unseen enemy open up.

In either case the defenders shouldn't have total surprise and if they do manage it they they shouldn't be able to bring their full firepower to bear against the advancing units for any length of time.

Yes, that I agree with that, the only thing that you can really test with this is the initial few shots fired at the advancing troops and how well each movement mode uses what cover there is in open ground because after contact the MTC troops are no longer moving and therefore out of the test. If I had to cross significant open ground I would want a numbers advantage somewhere in the area of 2.5:1 or 3:1 or with that not possible, some sort of heavy weapon or two to suppress the enemy. I think that I can move infantry around not bad (letting the AI pick your forces and playing the Russians 90% of the time forces you to do it) and I can cross a fair amount of open ground under fire and I rarely use MTC. First off, I do not really care where the enemy is, if I am in good cover and or out of LOS why would you use MTC. If I am moving towards a position where my guys could be fired at or into a possible enemy position, I advance with overwatch etc. MTC is used for drawing fire from last known position markers when my men are in position to deal with whatever jumps up.

[Colonel Talvela]

I think this is relevant to the discussion. These are some pics POS posted in the "DK wins perimeter" thread.

looks like at least a company of inf, maybe more. And a few of DKs troops are either routed or running away.


In this picture, it looks like POS troops get stopped by an inferior force, but FOW might be concealing more numbers. However, I am curious what movement order is given to cross open ground. The troops look like they are walking to me, so I assume MTC.


In the last picture, the only troops that appear to be in good shape are the ones in cover.


My point: Any movement given to that entire group to cross that open ground would have pretty much the same result. Which is why I feel that the test on #42 is mostly irrelevant because it starts with an unsound premise - that it is ever a good idea to move a mass of troops across open ground when they have a chance of being engaged. If the sound tactic of "scouting" was employed as it should be, the #42 test would never have any relevance, in my humble opinion.

[PoorOldSpike]

Another example of the 'Advance' order
Deep into overtime my Russians want to move across open ground towards the flag without stopping and get into the woods, so I issue an 'Advance' order to everybody because it means they'll usually keep on moving under fire unless the incoming fire is extremely heavy.



It goes as expected; by the end of the turn the woods are securely in their hands..
If I'd used 'Move to Contact' they'd have stopped in the middle of nowhere and no ground would have been gained..:)


Summary- Use 'Move to Contact' when you don't mind if your men stop under fire; and use 'Advance' when you want them to keep moving and gaining ground under fire.