SU-152 v Tigs/ Panths advice asked

[PoorOldSpike]

A guy just mailed me for tac advice and it's worth posting in the forum in case other people want to comment too..:)


Here's what he asked-

"I really get a hard time with the Russians at a 3000 pts farmland scenarios
in July 1943.
The tigers and panthers seem unstoppable to me.
I bought a lot SU-152 which can penetrate both tanks at a high range. Then I
bought a plt of t-70 which can kill a tiger at min range with its tungsten
ammo and I bought two plts of t-34 43(late) to fight his infantry a long
with some infantry of my own.
The problem is to get to the flags I have to traverse several hills. There
isn't much cover. So I thought it's a good idea to take the SU and put them
on a over watch mission. They sure engaged the tigers and panthers but they
simply are no match against them. The kill ratio is 2 of his vs. 6 of mine
(leaving me with 2 SU-152)"
-----------------------------------------


And here's my reply-

"1943 is a bad year for the Russians so you'll probably lose.
I'd probably lose too..:)
The SU-152 is good, but Tigers and Panthers are better, ..
And open farmland is bad for the Russians. They need lots of thick trees for cover..
Your opponent is happy..:)
Tell him you want a re-match, you will be German, buy Tigers and Panthers..:)
And look at this picture, the SU-152 gun penetration is excellent, but it has a low muzzle velocity, so it's very inaccurate at long range.
That's why you need lots of trees so the SU-152's can sneak close to the enemy tanks..:)
It also has a long reload time because the shell is very big"



https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards...598&page=1

[Chipmunk]

Your man should tell his opponent he is a lowlife for buying Tigers and Panthers in a '43 QB, particularly with farmland terrain.:eek1: He could suggest they use some armour limiting rules, like Redwolf's. In such a situation he could also go for rarity off, then the Soviets can afford some weapons that have a chance against German heavies, such as the 57mm AT gun and aircraft. As you said, don't go for farmland terrain either. Rural with heavy trees would redress the balance a bit, and buy a lot of tank hunters and ampulomets.

[PoorOldSpike]

Your man should tell his opponent he is a lowlife for buying Tigers and Panthers in a '43 QB..

But our man ain't exactly a noob so he should have known better than to agree to play as Russkis in 43 anyway..;)
But it's okay if they're going to swap sides and do a mirror later.
HEY NOOBS learn from this- you can happily agree to any game your opponent suggests as long as you make him promise to do a mirror afterwards it's the only fair way to go and solves the problem of unbalanced QB's/ scens at a stroke..:)

[Chipmunk]

Yeah that's a good point. Another way I find to help establish balance is to let the first player pick the parameters (including date). Then the second player can choose the sides. This will make the first player somewhat circumspect in choosing a set of parameters that may give one side too much of an advantage.

[Saint Ruth]

1943 is for the Russians like 1941 is for the Germans.

In 1941, the Russians can buy indestructible tanks, and in 1943, the Germans can...the worst isn't the Tiger and Panther, the worst is the Stug III/F...it's cheaper and indestructible from the front by regular Russian armour until the SU-152 (though Valentine IX tanks with 57mm guns can take them out but they are sooooo sloooow).

In general, SU-152s get off 2 shots per 60 seconds versus 6 per Tiger/Panther so one-to-one, they'll lose. So you need 3 SU-152s against one Tiger/Panther to win.

Panthers are quite easy to take out from the flank though, but in Farmland that's not an option.

If he choose those parameters as Germans then he gave you an unbalanced game. And BOOO to him. If you choose them, well, live and learn... ;)
Chalenge him to a rematch in july 41 and buy KVs and T-34s... ;)

[Chipmunk]

Regarding tactics for actually defeating the Germans with the weapons at hand in '43, Leto has recently made a thread about this at GS and I think think it's worth posting some of it here as it is germane to this discussion:

In 1943, in a setup where the German player wants hillly open space, you would take about 6-8 37mm guns and set them up on hills that you can defilade your tanks on, or behind those defilade tank positions… you would then lure out the panthers by using the good old scoot and shoot tactic with the SU-152, as that is the only way to actually use them against German big kitties in 1943, and when the Germans expose themselves, use the 37mm guns (at that distance can’t be spotted) on those Panthers and Tigers until they are knocked out or immobilized. I can’t tell you how many times that I’ve played 1943 scenarios and the mightiest gun on the map is the Russian 37mm at range… lost countless tigers and panthers… killed even more with my own 37's.

Secondly, SU-122’s in defilade or keyhole positions that can use indirect fire on Tigers and Panthers is another effective tactic, but you need to be highly careful as the German tanks will be hunting those HE chuckers pretty ferociously, so make sure you have mortars for smoke, or AFV’s that fire smoke (hard to find in the Russian OOB). It's always tricky to find ways to drop indirect HE from 122 or 152 guns in and around german tanks without them getting a shot off on you, or within the next turn, advancing on hunt to take you out... need to have your hand on the reverse gear at all times.

[Mikey_FGM]

In 1943, Soviet players have two options:
-Ask for a reasonable "No Tigers" restriction in the spirit of balanced fair play.
-To lamely exploit a game flaw by abusing 37mm AA guns.

I've been playing LOTS of games in March 43 lately, Allied Attack. Vals backed up with SU-122's in heavy trees. I have asked for a "No Tigers" restriction in all of them. The games have been closely fought, exciting contests.

I play quick battles for fun, not to mimic the historical force imbalance with KV1's in 41, Tigers in 43, etc... If I wanted to suffer through an absurdly unbalanced battle, I would play a scenario that represented that situation... Duh..

[Hedgehog]

Guys very interesting reading...My self I think that if you feel that you are at a disadvantage always plug for the mirror game, it also makes the situation very interesting....I play a lot of mirrors and it's amazing the different tactics opponents come up with.


Ted

[PoorOldSpike]

..the Stug III/F...it's cheaper and indestructible from the front by regular Russian armour until the SU-152 (though Valentine IX tanks with 57mm guns can take them out but they are sooooo sloooow).

Yes the Stug IIIF 'late' (remember the 'late', it's a whole lot tougher than the standard IIIF) sends T-34/76's bananas because they can't scratch it frontally..

RUSSIANS WILL HATE THE LATES

In the first half of 1942 two AFV's arrive on the Eastern Front that between them end the dominance of the T-34/76 and KV-1 at a stroke.
The first is the PzIIIJ(late) which arrives in April, its gun has only an average chance of penetrating T-34 hulls frontally, and very little chance of penetrating KV-1's (until it gets tungsten) but its front armour is very difficult for the Russians to penetrate, and the second is the Sturmgeschutz IIIF(late) which arrives in June whose gun can easily take out both Russki types, AND its front can't be penetrated by them.
Make sure you buy the right models, the Pz IIIJ(late) has 70mm armour, and the Stug IIIF(late) has 80mm.
Later on in the war other models will have the same armour and may come cheaper but these babies were the first.