Rising Sun under ver. 1.03 - Not good

[Kool Kat]

Gents:

I am sorry to report that the ver. 1.03 game patch has fundamentally changed the game flow and has dramatically altered Japanese play in Rising Sun. And NOT for the better. (Aside - I have read the majority of ver. 1.03 postings and what I report will just add more evidence to past threads).

Case in point. I just completed a PBeM RS scenario - Bougainville. I was the Japanese player. My opponent and I had enjoyed a closely matched game - lead changed several times and only a few points separated us. Then; at a pivotal time in the game, I begain my counterattacks. Several Banzai attacks were repulsed - no losses to the Marines. In one memoral Banzai, a full strength Japanese infantry unit assaulted a dispersed single Allied infantry (in CLEAR terrain) - no Allied losses or retreat. In another Banzai attack, a single Japanese infantry unit with leader, caused SIX Allied units (rifle, SMG mixed stack) to retreat 3 times!! Finally, in a non-Banzai episode, my opponent was able to ONE SHOT a full strength Japanese infantry unit using a SINGLE 81mm mortar unit!

As my opponent mentioned in his email to me... and I will echo the same sentiment: "I don't mind losing to a good opponent, but I get very frustrated losing to a game engine."

I had also played this same opponent in a ver. 1.02 RS game and the Japanese forces behaved and played much differently under the earlier version.

IMHO, ver. 1.03 severely nerfs the most effective tactic the Japanese can employ - Banzai and assaults. It makes Bougainville not winnable (as the Japanese) and I have to assume that this also negatively effects the other RS scenarios.

I plan to suspend my other games, and not start any new ones, until ver. 1.03 gets a major rework.

[Von Earlmann]

The Kamikaze attack was also one of the Japanese best tactics....that didn't work out too well either :-)

Banzai charges are the main reason I don't play risng sun regardless of which version it is...........the 9:30 charge is also the reason I rarely play small and or stock scenarios....one of those game engine thingys :-)

VE

[Huib Versloot]

I've had no problems with assaulting in my PBEM game in RS. Other than that Hawk is shooting the $H!T out of my troops, the few assaults I conducted went surprisingly well. :P
I don't do Banzai thingies though.

[Fubar1]

Thsnt'a a damn shame if it's true

I need to fire up a RS game to check for myself

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Dang, I had a feeling that would be a major factor in RS. :eek1:

I hated to be Banzi'ed and the new rule would surely take the sting out of that tactic. :chin:
I did see the Banzi as making the Japs too strong, I would not want this new rule change to make it an unusable tactic all together.

My belief remains steadfast, that these new rules have changed the game and not just the tactics used to play it. And, they are no more real or unreal than the old rules.
At least with the old rules the game thrived on our ladder and in other game clubs across the internet? :smoke:

[Mr. Guberman]

Banzai attacks (as designed into CS) are absurd. Japanese "Banzai" attacks worked against the Chinese and gained quite a reputation...but they were just standard assaults, combining the excellent Japanese morale and the decrepit Chinese morale...the Japanese did, invariably, shout "Banzai" as they assaulted. They were in no way the concocted supper assaults as depicted in CS. That is why I am reluctant to add leaders to the Japanese in my scens, for fear of the super Japanese contemplated here.

The Japanese gained their successes by unbelievable tenacity...and suprise of surprises, by infiltration. If the Japanese were to properly be represented in CS, their infantry should move like "light infantry"...as they invariably popped up in the most unexpected places, moving through difficult terrain very quickly.

Other than against the Chinese, where the "Banzai" was coined, Japanese charges were slaughtered (Sumatra, Burma, the South Pacific, everywhere where they faced modern automatic weapons), with no benefit to the Japanese other than reducing the number of mouths to feed on their flimsy supply lines. "Banzai" attacks were almost always performed as a last act of suicide, rather than as a military tactic. Now that can be done in CS, assault as much as you want to, out of ammo and against undisrupted, entrenched enemy and historical "Banzai" charges can be replicated...with the accompanying slaughter. Certainly there is no evidence that the hopped up "Banzai" attack, as we see it here...ever existed. It is malarkey.

Cheers
Curt

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Excellent points Curt! :)
Maybe the new toned down assault rules will balance the Banzai?

Maybe the Matrix crew could remove the Banzai altogether? If it only worked against the Chinese that could be reflected in scenarios designed with poor Chinese morale against Japanese good morale? :smoke:

Just some thoughts.
I've never seen an historical report of "Banzai" wiping out Allied soldiers. Though, I've read where the night assaults were very effective at causing panic. :cool:

[Kool Kat]

Dang, I had a feeling that would be a major factor in RS. :eek1:

I hated to be Banzi'ed and the new rule would surely take the sting out of that tactic. :chin:
I did see the Banzi as making the Japs too strong, I would not want this new rule change to make it an unusable tactic all together.

My belief remains steadfast, that these new rules have changed the game and not just the tactics used to play it. And, they are no more real or unreal than the old rules.
At least with the old rules the game thrived on our ladder and in other game clubs across the internet? :smoke:

Hi Ed:

I had read many of your "passionate" ver. 1.03 postings... and initially I believed (hoped) that veterans like yourself were "over reacting" to the new changes in this game patch.

However; sadly, having experienced ver. 1.03 up front and personal in RS (Bougainville), I now find myself firmly in your camp.

Suggestion: Why can't Matrix go back to ver 1.02 (with all its known issues) and then incrementally build / tweak the game engine? :conf:
For example, release a ver. 1.03 that ONLY updates assault or ONLY updates OOB or ONLY updates new nationalities, etc. Extensively play test each INCREMENTAL change and then ONLY release that incremental change in a new game patch. That way, if there are issues / bugs, these problems can be isolated and resolved immediately.

Maybe this is too "simplistic" an approach :chin: but IMHO Matrix released a game patch with too many changes / updates that fundamentally changed both game play and mechanics. And now the option on the table looks to be a "fix" of bugs in ver. 1.03, but not a review of whether the assault changes, naval units, OOB, etc have negatively or positively impacted game play and scenario balance. I look for both playability and scenario balance with some "realism" thrown in when I play RS.

BTW... I agree that Banzai made the Japanese too strong in ver. 1.02, but now it appears to have been nerfed in ver. 1.03. Again, looking for a balance here.

[Kool Kat]

Excellent points Curt! :)
Maybe the new toned down assault rules will balance the Banzai?

Maybe the Matrix crew could remove the Banzai altogether? If it only worked against the Chinese that could be reflected in scenarios designed with poor Chinese morale against Japanese good morale? :smoke:

Just some thoughts.
I've never seen an historical report of "Banzai" wiping out Allied soldiers. Though, I've read where the night assaults were very effective at causing panic. :cool:

Maybe only allow Japanese limited Banzai attacks in a given scenario or change the Assault Value of a unit conducting a Banzai attack to be doubled - not tripled. That alone might be enough to "tone" down Banzai attacks.

[Mike Abberton]

Just some thoughts.
I've never seen an historical report of "Banzai" wiping out Allied soldiers. Though, I've read where the night assaults were very effective at causing panic. :cool:

Ed,

I am pretty sure there were some isolated cases of smaller US units (companies or light battalions) being overrun and suffering heavy losses (perhaps "wiped out" in the CS sense) on some of the larger Japanese-held islands (Guam, Saipan, Okinawa). They were typically mass night infiltration attacks though, not daytime "Banzai" attacks like you can make in CS.

I agree with Mr. Guberman that most of the Japanese "Banzai" attacks in real like were mostly ineffective and lead to very lopsided Japanese casualties relative to US casualties.

Mike