6th PzD - OOB Question - Stalingrad

[Aetius]

From Lexikon der Wehrmacht (http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Glie...ung228.htm):

"Aufgestellt am 10. November 1942 im Raum Luckenwalde bei Berlin mit drei Batterien. Eigentlich sollte die Abteilung nach Afrika geschickt werden verlegte aber Anfang Dezember 1942 in den Raum Ostrow, wo sie am Bahnhof Salsk ausgeladen wurde. Hier wurde sie der 8. Armee zum geplanten Entsatzangriff auf Stalingrad zugeteilt. Es folgten Abwehrkämpfe im Donezraum und Abwehr starker russischer Durchbruchsversuche. Die Abteilung beteiligte sich an der Wiedereinnahme von Charkow und an der Abwehrschlacht bei Bjelgorod, Krementschug und Poltawa. Anschließend wurde die Abteilung im Kessel von Tscherkassy eingesetzt. Am 14. Februar 1944 in
Sturmgeschütz-Brigade 228 umbenannt. Es folgten Kämpfe in Rumänien und in Ungarn. In diesen Kämpfen gingen sämtliche Sturmgeschütze verloren. Es kam zu letzten Einsätzen am Granbrückenkopf Szolnok. Es folgte der Rückzug auf Brünn. Im Raum Wirschau, Kralitz und Mehren letzte Einsätze bei der 15. Infantrie-Division."

My German is barely enough to follow, but it seems that Stug.abt.228 was formed in November 1942. Originally intended for Africa, it was rerouted in early December to the Sal'sk area (i.e SW of Stalingrad). The author spoils it all saying that is was attached to 8.Armee, though, which didn't form until late 1943...
It also says that the battalion had three batteries on formation...

Rui

[von Nev]

Good discussion all. I think we may be narrowing it down.

I did find the 228th in "Strumgeschutz Vor." I mistakenly overlooked that two page appendix section on other units where little information is available. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

I agree Richrd that Beevor is probably not be a credible / good source. I was startled by his statement that the first Tigers were somehow in the Stalingrad relief. My understanding was that they were sent to Leningrad and I can't believe that Raus would not mention these "Wonder Weapons" in his book if they were truly available.

Based on what we have so far I am getting comfortable in saying that that the assault gun unit may be the 228th. The question now is how big was it and what quality? Raus seems to have gotten the overall number of tanks that the 6th PzD had right (or pretty close). He mentions it was around 150 and that is what independent sources also claim. Any reason to believe that he would be seriously off in his assessment of the number of tanks in the assault gun unit? He was commanding them. He says in one place it was 42 and in another it was 40. Could a brand new Stug unit that was going to Africe be overstrength at 40? At a minimum I was thinking that it should be at least at its T/O strength. Also, and this is food for thought, why would they be shipping a unit all the way to Africa at less than full strength? I can see them overstrength it since it took so long to reinforce Africa.

Regarding the morale, I was thinking it was "B" quality at a minimum perhaps even "A". Stug units were horribly feared on the battlefield by the Russians and this unit, according the Raus, performed very well on the battlefield. I struggle with making it a "C" unit since "C" units are very brittle. One shot and the whole unit can disrupt and with 100 fatigue it is down to "D" quality. If the German relief effort is going to match any sort of advance that happened historically they can't be that brittle IMHO.

Your thoughts?

Also, Ed (Volcano Man), I am serious here, do you think you can put together a camel unit art? I really think that would be cool. Raus mentions that he thinks it was a whole brigade of camels.

Marty

[Volcano Man]

You are right about the fact that it would be better to give the unit B quality instead of C, especially if they are using ausf F. C quality ausf F StuG unit would probably just be so much fodder, especially in the _Alt against the T34/76c.

As for how large the unit was, I would say that if it was indeed full strength (which it sounds like it was) then it would have three 13 vehicle companies, so it should be about 39 vehicles. The other 40th and 41st vehicle was probably the battalion CO and XO's track which need not be represented.

Sure, I have camel art from my Compass '40 expansion for E42. Just send me a list of the units that should have camels, then I can look at the component in those units and change the horse into a camel and send the image to you. BTW, MKW db puts a camel equipped infantry unit defense at 8 (in T mode of course, identical to horse cav speed) and speed of 6 (horse cav speed is 8). Not sure what values you want to use (a speed of 7 would work too) but those values sound right to me. A camel has a slower sustained speed, but I imagine that the real reason they may have chosen camels as their preferred mounts is because they could travel farther on the steppes without need for water.

[Richrd]

In the same passage as quoted above Beever also says; "He (Hitler) was also impatient to discover how the new Tiger tank, with it's 88mm gun, would perform. The very first battalion....." The first Tigers had been fighting around Leningrad since late September, and Hitler had discovered, no doubt to his great annoyance, that when the Russians have got your tank, it's 88mm gun isn't worth a wooden pfennig. I loved the Beever book and other than this have found no fault with it.
The 503rd was also committed to action incomplete, with two companies and 22 Tigers. 2./502 s.Pz.Abt was added, renamed 3./503, in mid january 43.

[Richrd]

von Nev, in the series of monographs about Hoth's relief attempt written by Raus for the U.S. army after the war, he never mentions any Sturmeshutz battalions at all. However, too many sources place the 228th in the attempt to relieve Paulus. It was available and up to strength. It's personnel were probably experienced Panzetruppen. I would guess it was a pretty good battalion with a lot of confidence in it's equipment.

[Volcano Man]

So was 1.&2./s.Pz.Abt.503 also in the LVII.PzK with the StuG.Abt.228? I am not sure if anyone has connected the dots or not, but is it no coincidence that both the s.Pz.Abt.503 and StuG.Abt.228 were both along side each other at Kursk as well (in III.PzK)?

[Richrd]

Volcano man, nothing would be more exciting for me than to contribute my small bit to your outstanding work. Particularly in the Stalingrad game I like to think I could give some solid info, either side.
31 vehicles was the max for any StuG battalion until 44. The 31 vehicle battalion was only established in Nov 42. (From about 21 previously) Three companies with ten AFVs, plus one for the battalion commander. In Nov 42 there were 20 Battalions. 347 operational, 101 under repair. By December 28 there were 27 battalions. 315 operational and 127 under repair. Production of the long barrelled StuG's had increased from 3 in march 42, to 100 in November. All these numbers, the expansion the Sturm artillerie, and the replacement of losses and the earlier models, makes it hard for me to think that there might be one super battalion shipped out to Hoth.

[Richrd]

On 1 January the truncated 503rd was in Rostov, headed east. On the second it was in Sal'sk. Isn't that interesting, since the 228th was bound for the same place?The 228th was partnered with the 6th Pz throughout 43. I wouldn't be surprised if the 6th picked it up as it moved around to the Chir front.

[Wien1938]

These units, being assigned to the same Corps would likely have turned up together, not least because they would using the same logistical routes to travel.
The early Tiger Battalions (501-3) were two company battalions. 503. was complete by December 1942. 501 and 502 were not complete.
So from a certain point of view, 503 was the "very first battalion to be formed..." It was the first operational battalion; the other two existed in name only, the actual constituent parts operating as independent companies or in small parts (as 501's Tigers in Tunisia).

One shouldn't assume that 503 was understrength because of it's absorbtion of 502's 2.Kom, as from 5.3.1943 the sPzAbt were established at 14 Tigers per coy and 3 coys to the battalion. My reading of the situation is that the absorbtion of the company was part of in-field rationalisation towards the new ToE.

From Tiger page.
"At first there were only two units, schwere Panzer-Kompanie 501 and 502. created as Heerestruppen (independent army units). These were incorporated into schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501, and two more units each with two companies were created, schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502 (heavy tank battalion) and 503."

[Ricky B]

31 vehicles was the max for any StuG battalion until 44. The 31 vehicle battalion was only established in Nov 42. (From about 21 previously) Three companies with ten AFVs, plus one for the battalion commander. In Nov 42 there were 20 Battalions. 347 operational, 101 under repair. By December 28 there were 27 battalions. 315 operational and 127 under repair. Production of the long barrelled StuG's had increased from 3 in march 42, to 100 in November. All these numbers, the expansion the Sturm artillerie, and the replacement of losses and the earlier models, makes it hard for me to think that there might be one super battalion shipped out to Hoth.

Agreed on the numbers in a battalion. Another point, the 31 StuG count was authorized in Nov 42, but according to Nafziger's Panzers and Artillery volume, covering the StuG units, they didn't get their additional vehicles until Feb/Mar, which would leave the battalions at around 21 (23 at full strength I believe) in Dec. Based on this, the only way Raus would be correct is if there was a second battalion of unknown designation assigned in close conjunction with the unit Raus mentions - that would easily account for the total he gave of 42, double the 21.

Rick