Some statistics

[Huib Versloot]

Statistics so far "before" and "after" 1.04 of WF scenario "Where There's Trouble". Allies are attacker, Germans are defender. Length 20 turns.

Before 1.04 (and 1.03)
Played 18 : Germans win 7, Allies win 8, Draw 3

After 1.04
Played 17: Germans win 9, Allies win 6, Draw 2

The shift in favor of the defender doesn't seem so dramatic as some assumptions put forward in other posts.

[Hawk Kriegsman]

Statistics so far "before" and "after" 1.04 of WF scenario "Where There's Trouble". Allies are attacker, Germans are defender. Length 20 turns.

Before 1.04 (and 1.03)
Played 18 : Germans win 7, Allies win 8, Draw 3

After 1.04
Played 17: Germans win 9, Allies win 6, Draw 2

The shift in favor of the defender doesn't seem so dramatic as some assumptions put forward in other posts.

How do you know which version of the assault rules people used?

I don't think there is a way you can actually tell.

Edit: Additionally the first reported games are from 2005. That would be TS. So it would be impossible to tell if all the recent games were actually all Matrix to boot.

Thanx!

Hawk

[Huib Versloot]

I should have added that all 1.04 results are for Remko's tournament where extreme assault was mandatory. So these figures are reliable.

[Otto von Blotto]

In Remko tournament which I am playing in, I didn't use assualts as either the Germans or the Aillies, cant speak for the others but not an assualt heavy game I would say.

One of my oppentents did try a few times thou as the allies and got held up for 4 turns trying to take a minor village from a couple of German infantry squads that he should have been able to just brush aside in short order.

[Hawk Kriegsman]

I should have added that all 1.04 results are for Remko's tournament where extreme assault was mandatory. So these figures are reliable.

Well that is all well and good, but let's take a look at few more items shall we?

The matrix version of CS was released June 5, 2008.

No games were played with Matrix CS prior to the tournament.

You are comparing Matrix CS to TS CS and I am uncertain that they are comparable.

So we do not have a comaprision between Matrix CS 1.02 and Matrix CS 1.03/1.04.

If we look at the possible points earned by the Germans it breaks down as:

Matrix 1.04 Matches = 816 total possible points
Germans earned 524 points for 64%

TS Matches = 864 total possible points
Germans earned 476 points for 55%

A 9% increase in points for the Germans is statiscally significant.

So to paraphrase: between the 2 versions we have in Matrix 1.04 the Germans earning about 2/3 of the points while in TS they earned about half.

It kind of goes with what I have been saying.

The 1.04 assault rules are too hard on the attacker IMHO.

Thanx!

Hawk

[Hawk Kriegsman]

In Remko tournament which I am playing in, I didn't use assualts as either the Germans or the Aillies, cant speak for the others but not an assualt heavy game I would say.

One of my oppentents did try a few times thou as the allies and got held up for 4 turns trying to take a minor village from a couple of German infantry squads that he should have been able to just brush aside in short order.

And let us never discount the first hand experiences of those that were there!

Thanx!

Hawk

[Huib Versloot]

In Remko tournament which I am playing in, I didn't use assualts as either the Germans or the Aillies, cant speak for the others but not an assualt heavy game I would say.

One of my oppentents did try a few times thou as the allies and got held up for 4 turns trying to take a minor village from a couple of German infantry squads that he should have been able to just brush aside in short order.

hhmmmm who's the interviewer now...

Not an "assault heavy" scenario? It has several 500 vp urban objectives required for a major victory.
I took them by assaulting in my Allied game. Don't know how you did it though.

The SS troops of Sturmbannführer Siegler and Sturmbannführer Roestel where not brushed aside "in short order" historically either, nor were the Fallschirmjäger of Lovted-Hardegg.
Anyhow these figures don't support the assumption that attacking has become so much more difficult than before.

[Huib Versloot]

If we look at the possible points earned by the Germans it breaks down as:

Matrix 1.04 Matches = 816 total possible points
Germans earned 524 points for 64%

TS Matches = 864 total possible points
Germans earned 476 points for 55%

A 9% increase in points for the Germans is statiscally significant.


It kind of goes with what I have been saying.

The 1.04 assault rules are too hard on the attacker IMHO.

Thanks for doing the math.
The design itself was unchanged from the first match to the last. There was no difference in the assault rules between Talonsoft and Matrix prior 1.03.
The value of Halftracks has increased in 1.04 adding favor to the Germans as they have the opportunity to take out a lot of them if the allied player is not careful. These are among the first games played in 1.04, so not everybody is yet used to the new rules.

Actually I find 9% a very good % and I'm very pleased with it. It's even less deviation than I thought. I'm now even more happy with the new assault rules and more confident most scenarios are as playable as before, or even better.

[Hawk Kriegsman]

Well I am not so sure that you have only the slight increase that you think you have.

One now has to factor in the relative strength of the US player verses the German player.

In the TS 18 matches the attacker's have an unweighted points percentage (each person percentage counted equally as any others) of .510 while in the German players had an unweighted points percentage of .553. The German players were statisically quite better than the attackers. This gave the German players a higher percentage of wins than if they were facing equal opponents.

All told the Germans won 38% of the matches outright.

Now we go to the matrix 1.04 data:

The American players had an unweighted points percentage of .526 while the German players had a points percentage of .546. This is a much closer level of opponent than previously and yet the Germans gained 2 more wins. While 9 wins verses 7 is not much numerically you need to compare the winning percentages. In Matrix 1.04 the Germans one 53% of the time. This is a 15% increase in outright wins and verses slightly better American players.

This is statisically very telling.

The point of all this? You can make statistics tell you what ever you want. Just depends on how you write them up and spin them.

The truest way to say that this one scenario is harder/not harder with 1.04 is to have all the same 17 matches with the same players playing each other turn off the extreme assault rules and play again.

I am confident in saying you will see a dramatic rise in American wins.

Thanx!

Hawk

[Von Luck]

Let us not forget the whole idea of the game.To simulate warfare at the platoon level.Axis doctrine was swift advance surround and desrtoy.On longer scenarios this might not be to much of a problem with the 1.04 assualt rules but in shorter ones it is.Example as ive put up on the MB before 13 Panthers plus 3 A/Cs assualt a disrupted mg unit result nothing the mg unit stays in place.That for me is not even anywhere realistic.Maybe the planners coders for this could come up with an odds factor for units which assualt defend etc.Example of a game would be 12 turn scenario where 4 Soviet infantry units block the advance of German armour even although their disrupted holding up this advance and making it impossible for the Axis to win.