Truck Points Value

[Chuck10mtn]

IO would like to see a way to remove truck from the board without having to move them all the way to a edge hex. It just takes way too long on some of the scenarios to move them all. Just on my wish list after all it is the holiday season.

Chuck

[K K Rossokolski]

There is so much to learn about warfare in general and the new units in the wonderful 1.04 update in particular I reckon it's time we stopped raising picky points of very limited significance and had posts on tactical lessons again.

I hardly think a change in truck value of 300% is "a picky point of very limited significance", nor indeed does raising it preclude discussion on other issues.

The rationale of preventing misuse is fine; I do wonder whether a value of 2 might be more appropriate in the overall scheme of things

[Stuka44]

I believe the higher truck value is good. Afterall although these are single battles we play, in the long run the trucks were highly valuable to transport the units to the next battle location. And I agree with the need to keep them from being used for recon and "Op Fire" suck up. [/font]

[Jason Petho]

The rationale of preventing misuse is fine; I do wonder whether a value of 2 might be more appropriate in the overall scheme of things

On my to-do list is the conversion of existing stock scenarios to ensure the "proper" SP allocation of trucks is given to the carriers.

A 3-SP truck with a victory point value of 3 is only 9 points in total, a 50% increase over the factory 6 SP * 1 VP = 6 points in total.

So yes, at the moment, those scenarios where the designer didn't adjust any of the truck SP's (which is poor design, in my humble opinion) leaves trucks worth 18 VP for some scenarios, it is on my list of things to adjust in 1.05.

Jason Petho

[K K Rossokolski]

I think there are a couple of issues worth considering re the rise in truck values
Intuitively, we might well classify a 1/2T as more valuable than a truck, and not unreasonably so...1/2Ts give better protection to their contents, are typically armed with a MMG, and have better x-country capability. To me this points to a higher value for the 1/2T than the truck.
You said above you plan to adjust all existing stock scenarios...This is no small task, noting the majority of stock scens predate JTCS, and have, presumably, been through a testing regime based in part on one truck one point
I said above "The rationale of preventing misuse is fine" On reflection, I withdraw from this. Players are responsible for their own behaviour. It does seem from this thread that player behaviour was an important factor in this decision. If so, that is a sad reflection on the Blitzkreig Gaming Club...that good simulation is sacrificed to try and prevent some PERCEIVED "gamey" behaviour, by a small minority. And while the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater, consider this. A good number of CS scens feature the Exit hex, which in my experience can call for many tricky decisions, giving a most rewarding game. No longer...why weigh the pros and cons of loading a truck when you can exit it empty, and get 3VP a pop?

If the only reason for upping the VPs of trucks is to guard the ethics of our members.............demeaning, insulting, are a couple of words that, sadly, come to mind.

[Von Earlmann]

I have no problem with exiting transport units from any game I play. I do not consider it gamey etc.In fact I consider it realistic..........I reckon any truck driver with nothing to do would probably like to exit a combat zone :-).

I do have a problem with continuously running into trucks that are ACCIDENTALLY left a strategic crossroads and advance points as they ACCIDENTALLY block movement etc and have to be either fired on or assaulted. This tactic also slows down the game.............which considering all the complaints about the new assault rules slowing down the game should mean we will never see this tactic employed again.............yeah right :-)

Earl

[Herr Straße Laufer]

I see your points Rod!
And, Earl, spot on as usual.

"We" used to have house rules that governed the use of non-combat vehicles. Most covered the "gamey issues" of non-combat truck use.
Whenever I see a player driving a truck to help surround a hex or block a choke point I let them know.
If it continues I simply stop playing them. If the new point values help a player to stop on their own that is great. But, I do see the concern about removing trucks at exit hexes and the resulting increase in points gained.

I think the community policing itself will win out.
And, the changing of tactics will develop over time.

RR

[umbro]

Very interesting discussion.
Some definitions:
"gamey": tactic used in the game not seen in actual warfare of the time.

For example:
Q. In actual warfare can one line a road with trucks so as to cause a roadblock that takes time to clear
A. Yes, clearly

Q. Can such a tactic be used in the game.
A. Yes, clearly.

Q. Was such a tactic ever used in battles from our period.
A. No.

So we now have to ask ourselves:
1) Why not?
2) How can the game model this non-behaviour.
3) What other impact will this model cause.

The answer to 1) is probably that they were simply too damn valuable to lose in such a manner. From what I remember reading truck transport was a godsend to german infantry and looking at photos from the time they would requisition any transport they found.

2) Assignment of VPs is a natural modelling technique, and maps nicely on allowing a behaviour that could occur on the actual battlefield but reflecting its cost. (Of course, I am biased as I think that the cost should be more like 5VPs/SP, though I do agree that HTs should be even more valuable again.)

3) The impact on existing scenarios that have an exit hex is potentially large, so perhaps a solution would be to reduce the VPs for exited transport units by whatever the multiple was for the transport VPs. (150% in this case)

This should achieve all the goals - reduce the use of "gamey" tactics, such tactics possible for a cost, no impact on existing scenarios.

umbro

P.S. Jason, before you go editing scenarios by hand drop me a line. We can probably automate 95% of that task.

[K K Rossokolski]

Good stuff. Are you leading up to a case for increasing the VPs for Axis transport? :stir:

I maintain that the values for transport should (in general) be 1 for small motorised, horse-drawn, and similar, 2 for trucks, 3 for 1/2Ts. I think this broadly reflects the relative capability..and that is what VPs should reflect.... yet holds a balance with combat units. It would also allow some recognition of relative individual unit capability...eg the GM Deuce and a half (VP2 , perhaps 3) vis-a-vis the weak Italian truck (VP1).
There might also be a case for making units that lose their mobility when unloaded -motorbikes come to mind-to be worth zip.
I don't like the idea of increasing the top transport VP past 3. This would then equal or exceed many tank types..eg a Pzkpfw IVD, which can also carry stuff.

[Kool Kat]

IO would like to see a way to remove truck from the board without having to move them all the way to a edge hex. It just takes way too long on some of the scenarios to move them all. Just on my wish list after all it is the holiday season.

Chuck

Hi Chuck:

I don't think Santa should deliver on this wish! :stir:

IMO it is a "good" thing that players cannot remove trucks and other transport from non-edge hexes.

I played a recent WF desert scenario (No, it was not you RR! :whis:) in which my armored cars were able to ambush enemy trucks that had dropped off their passengers and were motoring to the board edge.

Another example. In a current WF game, I was able to control the majority of the road network. My tactical control forced my opponent to keep his transport close and I was able to work a few light mortar units in close enough to score some hits on his trucks.

Allowing transport to drop off passengers and then be "magically" removed defeats these valid battlefield ambush tactics. It also "cheapens" the value of transport and leads to "gamey" tactics since players could drive loaded transport into battlefield areas with no regard on how to extract their valuable transport. Dismount your passengers... push a button... and poof - transport safely disappears from the battlefield! :smoke: