Alt Version of K44 - Community Request

[Strela]

Hi All,

As mentioned in the other K44_Alt thread we are a fair way through completing the conversion of all the stock scenarios to _Alt standard.

That said this is probably one of the most difficult of games to play due to the German counter density - yet it should also be one of the most exciting due to the operational situation.

So as the _Alt work wraps up, I am looking at what is involved to convert at least one campaign game across to a more manageble scale.

I would like to get the communities thoughts on what path to take - particularly those that have played K44 before. This is a MAJOR undertaking and we have one shot at getting it right so I welcome your opinions.

To get you thinking here are some thoughts ;



- Should ONLY Panzer / PzG units be reduced in unit numbers, ie. leave Infantry as is?

- Should All German units be consolidated ie, remove all HW units

- there are large areas to cover on the map - reducing unit density too much may make it impossible to defend long frontages.

- Currently the average Panzer Division has 80-90 units(!)

- Using the Minsk/Kursk approach this would drop to 35-40

- Use an interim approach where platoons are removed and grouped and equipment standardised, yet still leave HQ's etc in place to form Kampfgruppe. This drops the unit count to 60 all up and down to 42 when grouped as battalions

- I have an OOB and test file that shows this approach - a current game Panzer Division, a consolidated Panzer Division and a fully combined Panzer Division. As I can't work out how to attach it, I can email it out to anyone that is interested...

If you could please post all your thoughts and comments here so we can ensure they are taken into account.

David 'Strela' Freer

[cavalry corps]

David,

I have played the campaign I think twice and we will come out scn once

The main issues I have are as follows

Russian infantry units are far too strong when the fire. Perhaps your terrain improvements will help on that


The axis need several pre constructed entrenchment rings to fall back on ( they should have this in Stalingrad as well ) - when frozen nothing can be dug and thats a killer


In the we will come out scn with explicit supply all the Para drop supply is too far away behind the Russian lines and that is a killer of an otherwise excellent scn.


Actually I think the counter density is OK and remember this is supposed to be a level of game that depicts these kind of units . Going off topic - The problem is 2 hour and 1km demand this kind of detail . In the modern games the scale is bigger better suited to Battalions - I have always felt that was an oversight in the games concept .


Perhaps there could be two OOB if you have the time one at M44 scale and one at the existing!



Michael

[Marquo]

The Russians closed the ring with mines...engineers should be able to lay many mines. This is an interesting problem becasue I think that HW units were added to the Axis OOB for reasons which VM's approach may solve by adjusting range, etc. You may not need the HW units.

Marquo

[Strela]

Cavalry Corps,

You should expect both - the current scenarios done to VM's standard using the McNamara database and a new more streamline OOB and scenarios that removes many of the platoons and consolidates those units into more centralised formations. The current template I am experimenting on accounts for every vehicle/gun, but just groups them so you don't 3 or 4 vehicle units all over the map.

I have currently done this for Panzer Divisions and will experiment with Infantry today.

As far as the overall scenarios we are completing the _Alt scenarios first and there will be changes in those that will be universal. Think PDT and where there is a glaring issue (like supply paradrops) we will fix them also.

Please give us feedback on this kind of issue so we can incorporate it.

Marquo, current version has HW units in, I am running some tests using the _ALt structure and they seem ok. They are toned down from the stock scenarios in value. The only issue I have with them is that it extends the play sequence with the additional ranged firing...!

Strela

[alaric99x]

Hi David, thanks for your work on this title, I think it needs an update.

I'm only playing this for the first time on the Russian side, in the "We will come out," 0210_01s, scenario. Starting my turn 12 I've already killed 609 German vehicles. Those tiny halftrack and vehicle mounted AA units are very easy to destroy by artillery fire and infantry close assaults, most of my kills were accomplished in that way. A few artillery barrages will usually kill a 3 vehicle AA unit, but if it were a combined unit of 9 vehicles, it could lose 3 of those vehicles and then rest and recover fatigue and, with any luck, one or two of the destroyed vehicles and then get back in the fight. Needless to say, destroyed units never recover anything.

That ties in with the subject of unit density that you mention. My destruction of that many vehicles mainly represents the destruction of a lot of 3 vehicle units, that certainly reduces unit density. Better for the German side to have some depleted and recovering vehicle units behind the line than those tiny units that are gone for good. The same goes for those one, two or three gun artillery and AT units that can usually be successfully close assaulted even if not previously disrupted. Anyway, if you create a way to combine these units, the player would still have the option to divide them if he feels that he needs to cover a greater area of frontage.

Additionally, it's far too easy for my Russian infantry to close assault vehicles units that aren't stacked with infantry. I guess the MacNamara values will cure that, but it's also easier because many of the vehicle units are so small.

As far as the HW units are concerned, I don't really see any problem with them. They are somewhat more robust, at least they can't be killed by two shots of artillery fire.

[Kuriltai]

Some random stuff:
I have not played K44 a lot and usually want to play the "Coming out" scenario.I address this scenario only.
I would like to have a more Budapest like feel to this scenario(small German units able to capture ground by assault without becoming overly fatigued after one or two)
Give 72 Div their third Regt.(its in the OOB's,but not the scenario's).
Wiking had no Panthers according to Nash.
Nash and Zetterling have both come out after this title was released so lots of stuff could perhaps be changed.
Some things that I thought might possibly help with this scenario and perhaps you would consider.
-Fixing Russian's at night ala Market-Garden
-More night turns
-Give the Germans TIS capability(Ok,Laugh if you want,but historically the breakout was at night and continually caught the russians by suprise.If you can think of a better way to simulate this,lets hear it. ;) )
I think the start German setup is a little off according to Nash,not sure what Zetterling has to say.
Anyway,my thanks to all involved with helping out Volcano on this.

[Barbarrossa]

I have played as the Russians versus a competent German opponent and was totally beaten to the point of absurdity and we had three attempts The Campaign , the Campaign favouring the Russians and lastly Coming out. We did not finish any of them as they were all so onesided.

The Germans are in the Stock Sce in every way superior and even have a superioty in the number Tanks not to mention quality and hitting power.

Perhaps I am a very bad player but not to that extent. The German player in this game sce does not need to sit back and wait

he can attack and isolate his foe using his superior mobilty.

I wonder if someone has actually played this game out as the Russians NOT versus the Computer but versus and experienced German opponent and won.

To my mind this game should be one of the best historically but at the moment it is very unbalanced and by no means reflects Winter 1944 situation as it was at Korsun.

I hope this helps because vm mods actually make the Jungle cats stronger than the standard but his games and modification are a great asset to us all.:stir: .

[cavalry corps]

Do not use the fixed rule - that was the worst invention of PZC

I belive the game is stillbiased toward the Russians

Michael

[Strela]

Thanks all for your comments so far.

Interesting to see the different perspectives on which side is stronger!

Personally, I can see the advantages the Germans have with their plethora of small mobile units. Its easy to throw speed bumps onto the map with the 3 vehicle half track units and to also isolate the slower moving Russians. That said their staying power is minimal and an assault or indirect attack will soon remove them.

The first pass at reduction of units has essentially looked at removing all these small single digit units and to combine them into a few larger units. For example you will not get 4 platoons of 3 gun 75mm AT guns, but 1, 12 gun company in the Jagd battalion.

Same for the half tracks - I have left them in the PzG regiment, but only as company equivalents. So instead of a whole lot of 3 vehicle platoons, you now get a 15 - 20 vehicle company. These companies do NOT breakdown. So you now have to put them in the critical hexes and its to valuable to just throw it away.

I have accounted for every vehicle and gun of the original game - just consolidated the 'shrapnel' into a much smaller number of usable units. I have rationalised like types and most of these half track units represent the specialised gun or recon machines.

Infantry has had the same treatment and in the tests I have done has shown no adverse effects. The regimental structure is now much cleaner, but the same frontage can be held.

Anyway, keep the comments coming.

PS I have Nash, but have lent it to a friend so don't have access at the moment. Does anyone know of any glaring errors in the campaign startup? If so please let me know...

David

[Dog Soldier]

Interesting to see the different perspectives on which side is stronger!

Personally, I can see the advantages the Germans have with their plethora of small mobile units. Its easy to throw speed bumps onto the map with the 3 vehicle half track units and to also isolate the slower moving Russians. That said their staying power is minimal and an assault or indirect attack will soon remove them.

David

David,
I have played the stock K44 from both sides against competent and good players. The Germans plethora of units, esp. the STG companies makes it nearly impossible for the Soviets to close the ring or surround and kill the numbers of Axis units needed to win the CG.

No smart Axis player will leave those small units in a position to be close assaulted. Axis infantry can move adjacent to the Russian infantry while the panzers and PzGr break the Russian lines. Then the small HT and flak units move in behind the Red infantry, but leave one hex distance so they can not be assaulted. Panzers either wait to punce on the small T-34 units that show up to break the isolation of the Red front line troops or the panzers form a thrid ring is there is space an MP deeper in the Russian rear to protect the backs of the exploiting HT and flak units. Another use for so many small Axis vehicle units is to go spot Russian artillery for air strikes like so many recon units when the Pz divisions attack.

The STG units can form a line around a 20 -25 km of assault proof front for the Axis side if facing only Russian infantry. The Red infantry can not close with these mobile units if the Axis player does not want that to happen. This frees more Axis infantry to concentrate on the Soviet point of attack.

Russian tank units are small and quickly pounced on by superior numbers and quality Axis armor while the rest of the Axis forces dance just out of range of the Russian infantry until the Russian infantry is worn down causing the offensive to stop.

Commitment of large stacks of Red Armor to try and break through is futile since the Soviet Armored corps in the stock CG can be destroyed piecemeal by concentrated wolf packs of Axis armor. These wolf packs are assisted by the artillery and stuka air attacks. Whole Soviet armor corps are destroyed in a single day of fighting leaving the mech infantry to fend on foot for themselves.

If the weather clears so the Axis units can fight at two hex ranges, the Soviet tactical situation gets much worse.

I am speaking solely of the campaign game. Given freedom to act, the German forces will simply trade space for time until the relief panzer divisions are released. I say relief panzer divisions as they do not have to deal any Axis pocket. These forces will appear at the front before the plodding Soviet armies can wade through the deep snow to form an encirclement of the Axis forces. The Axis have too many units in the stock game so their lines only bend and never break with good management. The Russian infantry, except for some Guards units are C or D morale and can not assault enemy units two hexes away. So the game after the first day becomes a slow motion race with the odd Axis unit hamstrung and caught by a creeping Red wave.

Then the relief panzer divisions move up and combine with the at start panzer divisions to smash any Soviet mobile forces left or penetrate and surround whole Russian infantry divisions.

So scaling back the Axis ability to spread out their large number of units and conduct a Fabian defense will go a long way to balancing the Russian chances in the CG.

The new partisan rules from Minsk 44 might also make the Russian partisans in Korsun 44 more than just easy VP for the Cossack cavalry. I have not played K44 again since this change in the partisan rules.

I would not add additional rings of entrenchments for the Axis to fall back on. A mobile defense is all that is needed to pass the time until the panzer division reserves arrive and turn the tables on the Soviets.

Dog Soldier