Alt Version of K44 - Community Request

Turner · 01-12-2009, 11:20 PM,

Unfortunately my father have lent my copy, meaning I have no hope of getting it back anytime soon. Afaik the book is only available in swedish so far, a english translation should be in the works if it's not out already. Zetterling has based his book directly on source material from German and former Soviet archives. Thus, he pretty much disregard all previous publications on the battle and look at it from a new perspective. That's how a historian should work.

Strela · 01-12-2009, 11:44 PM,

Hi 33Vortex,

The book is definitely out in English. I have used the summary you posted in the other thread as a reference. Zetterling also published the rebuttal to Glantz's analysis of the Soviet study and I have utilsed that also. That study came out in 2002 and I expect will be significantly updated in his book.

The game will play very differently to the standard version. The changes are too many to list (yet) but there will be a lot less STuGs and fiddly platoons as well as a significant reduction in the German armour.

I am starting the play testing now, but will need the final Zetterling numbers to validate the tank strengths for both sides

bdtj1815 · 01-13-2009, 12:38 AM,

I have a copy of the Zetterling book and would be very happy to send you some extracts. Unfortunately there is not any consolidated charts so it would mean scanning and sending quite a lot of pages and some of the information is in the main text anyway. I will see what I can do in the next few days.

For example each division has approximately a page describing its strength in the Appendices but that means over 30 pages, including minor units!

I have attached one page as an example.

Turner · (This post was last modified: 01-13-2009, 01:41 AM by Turner.)

One thing that I doubt the game will simulate correctly, is the effectiveness of the german tank crews and their equipment. There are some documented engagements during the Korsun battle where ~20 panzers knocked out a 3-4 times larger tank force. There are several factors contributing to such results, not all of them modeled in the game. For instance, the PzV Panther could easily knock out a T34 at 2 km range, and did so consistently if commanded by a experienced crew. Not in PzC, at least not from what I've seen so far.

Perhaps the first issue is simulated through unit morale, I don't know if that does it well enough. However the second issue, range accuracy & lethality, work in favor of the russians in this game, as it evens out the playfield.

Soviet reports consistently exaggerated german force strength and numbers. Why that is exactly is hard to tell. However, given the actual strength of the german units during this battle, the germans did remarkably well. As Zetterling points out in his book, the Soviet strength was strategy, while their incompetence was on tactical level. For the germans it was the opposite, their strength was tactical prowess with highly trained NCOs but the strategy failed miserably time and again, many times because of direct intervention of Hitler himself. You know how they jokingly say that the best allied general was Hitler.

Strela · 01-13-2009, 01:39 AM,

Thank you bdtj1815,

Don't scan it as its clear it would be better to source the book. What your page confirms is that the data I need for operational vehicles etc is present. It looks absolutely perfect for what I need.

I am in the US 2nd week of Feb and will pick it up then. In the meantime I have some placeholder values for Panzer strength that wil suffice for the initial playtesting.

Thanks again!

Strela · 01-13-2009, 01:45 AM,

33vortex,

Trust me the McNamara values that Volcano man uses emphasises the German advantage over range.

And with the weakening of the Panzer numbers they are going to have to be efficient.

I will provide some feedback on how it looks as I get some further play tests done. I have just completed the initial conversion of the first campaign game and trust me its a big job. The good news is that the unit density has dropped.

Zetterling will hopefully help with the final balancing - or at least get a more appropriate starting position.

Ps I./26 Panther Battalion is now available with 61 Panthers - released on the morning of the 28th :) It is by far the biggest German tank unit - unfortunately its C morale...

Turner · 01-13-2009, 04:04 AM,

Yeah, I agree with you on the I./26th, it should be C morale. Considering they were fresh from training with only a 2 week stint on the front line before sent to the Korsun action. What destroyed the unit was their commander's overconfidence in how to use them. Tanks were needed desperatly, but putting too much weight on inexperienced personnel won't get you anywhere. They didn't exactly have a strike of luck either, quite the contrary. If I remember correctly, before the Korsun debacle was over, they were down to only 1/10th of their original fielded strength in operational tanks.

Landser34 · 01-13-2009, 07:24 AM,

My problem with the K44 campaign game here are a few of my pet peeves in this one.

1 all the little halftrack units with 2 or 3 vehicles that a decent German players can use to either get in the way to delay or thing thing I dislike the most is move around and isolate whole Russian divisions.

2 Russian tank strength I know there is no way as it is now that the Russian Tanks Corps on the 2nd Ukrainian Front is less than the German Panzer Divisions that they face at the start of an offensive the soviets are going into the attack with tank battalions with 9 tanks in them

Every Campaign that I have played of this one is that a pocket never forms and that it has to be a very bad German player to lose this one because the Germans have better mobilty.

all this being said this was my 1st Hps game and got me started on this ladder it is still one of my favorites but I will not play the Cmapaign anymore as Russians

Strela · 01-13-2009, 09:20 AM,

Lanser34,

I think you will find the new _ALT campaign more to your liking then.

All 2 or 3 halftrack, AT and AA units are centralised into a few units. There is no drop in the number of vehicles but instead of 4 x 3 vehicle platoons you will see 1 x 12 vehicle company.

Starting Panzer division tank and STuG strength has been reduced by two thirds. The German is now at the historical 140 - 150 AFV level instead of the current 414 AFV's. III Korp also has been trimmed to a more historical level. As mentioned earlier in the thread, I will use Zetterling's book to readjust the starting numbers. Forget all the STuG battallions that started the game - they are now a shadow of their former selves...

No significant change to the Russian tanks, but they now substantially out number the Germans at the start of the campaign and have room to take replacements at a faster pace. Again to be adjusted based upon Zetterling.

With less Panzers, the halftrack and AT companies now become important and hopefully a German will be less likely to use thes high value assets to throw behind the lines etc...

Turner · (This post was last modified: 01-13-2009, 12:32 PM by Turner.)

Sounds great! After reading Zetterling's book I'm really looking forward to playing this campaign. The historically accurate tank strengths should enable the Soviet troops to force a encirclement imho, but I've not played this campaign yet. Why is nobody playing the 'fixed' scenario? It is the historically accurate one after all and would offer the axis commander a serious challenge.

Will you make a 'fixed' version of this scenario as well as a ahistorical unfixed one? What about VPs and locations?

It will be some time before I get to play it though because I'm playing through all the grand campaigns of these titles in chronological order and have only come to Smolensk and France so far, with none completed yet.