Point Values

[RADO]

I have been having an interesting converstaion "off line" about point values in CS. From what I understand, the "point cost" of an infantry unit for example, is the same accross the board per strength point of the "unit".

Then if we have a unit of 6 strength points of German infantry, it has the same "point value" as the same sized unit of Soviet infantry, even though there is substantial difference in the capabilities of the two units in the game (as in combat factor).

If so, the "point system" is quite simply broken. If the "value" of the German unit is 25% more (just a number thrown out for discussion) it means the German receives 25% more value for the same cost. If this is the case, it automatically requires a scenario designer to require the German to achieve 25% greater results in the scenario just to keep it even.

I would like to hear from those more familiar with the CS "point structure" to help me better understand the issue. From what I understand right now, to me it seems "broken".

Perhaps I misunderstand.

- Greg

:)

[Jason Petho]

German infantry vp values range from 3 to 7. Russian infantry types range of value from 2 to 5.

There are a lot of classes of infantry now available that wasn't available before, offering different VP levels, different assault/defence, armed differently, etc, etc.

In most stock scenarios, what you are noticing would be the case. Since the scenarios use generic Talonsoft infantry, most are typically worth 3.

Jason Petho

[RADO]

Jason,

Is there a table in the game structure that allows one to look up combat value vs point cost, and if so, could you direct me to it?

Thanks.

Greg

[Jason Petho]

Jason,

Is there a table in the game structure that allows one to look up combat value vs point cost, and if so, could you direct me to it?

Thanks.

Greg

Off the top of my head, no, I don't believe so. But, you could take a look at the various units using the UNIT VIEWER that was included in the 1.04 UPDATE install.

Take a look in the USER MODS folder, it should be in the JTCS_Unitview folder. In the folder is an explanation of how to install and use it.

Hope that helps.

Jason Petho

[junk2drive]

Unit Viewer and Scenario Selector are both in the Windows Start menu.

[Huib Versloot]

In my experience it would actually be easiest to balance scenarios if most infantry are equal in points.

For example Volksgrenadiers are worth 5 vp, and regular US infantry are 3 vp. If both sides lose 100 sp, the Germans are 200 vp down compared with the Americans.
This makes balancing overly complicated because Volksgrenadiers are not necessarily performing better than regular US infantry. Morale is often just as decisive as "combat value" and this is not reflected in vp rating.
Thus the designer has the best idea about combat value, combined with morale that is allocated in a given scenario. Based on the quality of a side he can set the victory goals, which are often more ambitious for the stronger side. My advice would be to keep it simple.

Interesting dicussion though.

Huib

[RADO]

Morale is definately an issue to consider as well. My only point is that an infantry unit is not just an infantry unit in the game. Morale, combat factor, movement allowance, number of times a unit can fire in a player turn etc., are all values and should have a bearing on a unit's "point value" or VP value.

To ignore that and to give a point value of the same for units of different quality is an issue and makes it very difficult for a scenario designer to make an "even contest". The only thing he can do is "take his best shot" at compensating for these items and then by continued playtesting of a scenario, tweaking it until he deems it a balanced scenario.

- Greg

[Herr Straße Laufer]

I thought the various point values were based upon the effectiveness and/or 'rarerity' of the unit? :dunno:

Simple scenario balance issues could be remedied in the designer's use of unit mix and victory conditions?
And as Greg said, "through tweaking and playtesting". :thumbs_up: :chin:



Ed

[RADO]

Ed,

The problem with "tweaking" is that it is time consuming and so very subjective. A mathematical formula that gives point values based on game capabilities is much easier to use. That being said, producing such a formula is no easy task.

- Greg

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Greg,

I see scenario design as an art form. I'm not much into mathematical art. ;)
Though, I appreciate all visual art forms from, cave drawings, to abstract, through to impressionist. And, my musical tastes run from Classical, to Jazz, through to progressive & alternative rock. I think a computer doing either painting or music would not "thrill" me.

There are formula to use to establish a base for getting close to balance in a scenario design. A pure mathematical calculation would spoil the fun?
I guess I am more an "Edison style", let's tinker with it, rather then a Tesla "here it is" type of scenario "inventor".

I also look to see what the "improvement" would be to change all types of units to the same point value. It would remove the scale and scope of what the original game designers/developers had in mind?
How can hundreds of scenarios be made that are close to balanced, played by e-mail, and now some would like to make a change like having all units of equal value?
Would all armor be the same point values too?
If a Volksgrenadier and an American regular infantry man are worth the same that would be rather bland? Or, a Waffen SS trooper versus a Brit average soldier?

I'd much prefer to spend the time and effort tinkering with the scenario to "get it right", than tinker with the game engine and get it wrong.
Tweaking a scenario works and can be seen over time in the amouont of play and game reports?
I know it is my personal point of view. And, I am writing to help expand the horizons of "others". :smoke:

Ed