Proper protocol for intellegence gathering?

[Liebchen]

I agree with James. The map has artificially foreshortened edges of the world. In real life, the terrain beyond the map edge would be known, at least in the general sense. Furthermore, enemy formations approaching from that direction would stand the real risk of being detected to some degree before too long, even if only from the air or by their dust clouds.

[Jazman]

I think the proper protocol begins with being a gentleman, and exercising prudence and reasonableness.

I think because of hindsight we already know too much about these battles. (If we didn't know anything, we'd probably not be interested in the battle to start with.) A little extra self-imposed FoW in balance of that can't be bad.

[Aaron]

Blind, u shouldnt have any info past whats given to ya but of course after playing the same scenario a few time u cant help it but a designer can help take some of that out.

Aaron

[Liquid_Sky]

I had an amusing incident in the campaign game of Budapest45. Playing the Germans, I had no idea about the history of the battle, or even the forces that I might be facing, other then they were late war Russians, and probably had some pretty big tanks...

Since most of your attack forces enter the map later in the day, I decided to move the SS and attack the Russian forces on the North bank of the Danube, and swing down to relieve the city... Not knowing that an entire Guards tank army (the 6th) blips into existance there after two days...(with bridges set up over the river)

Needless to say, no knowledge is going to make you lose...

After we restarted, we played a very enjoyable campaign, while I attacked in the general direction of where I was 'supposed' to...

[Volcano Man]

Well, I didn't mean to say that you should not look over enemy reinforcements, I am just saying that we all know there are people that study the reinforcements to the point of writing down (mentally or phsyically) when they arrive, and even go so far as to see what they are exactly composed of in the scenario editor and then try to spring a trap on them by trapping them on the map edge. Just finding out where they are to reserve some forces to cover that direction or avoid the area because of protected hexes is something entirely different.

Still... there is nothing stopping people from doing anything; it is just all a question of what is "going too far". Just do what you are comfortable with. ;)

[Volcano Man]

I also suggest using the shade protected hex feature too... it does give you a clue where a strong force might be coming from on the map edge. Of course it is not perfect either.

It is worth mentioning that many things have been suggested in the past for better SA, such as having a message in the command report that "enemy forces have been spotted approaching hex xx, yy" when they are about a turn or so out from being deployed *on a map edge*, but that never panned out. Needless to say, you SHOULD of course have some kind of general info about where enemy units are coming from and briefly studying the info for that purpose is fine. I think Jazman put it quite perfectly in his first sentence. :)

[Steel God]

Just thought I'd share an amusing "reinforcement story"....

Just finished playing JDR Dragoon in a battle of Korea 85, I Corps Sector. Anyone familiar with K85 knows that the North Koreans have reinforcements show up behind the ROK lines on day 1 of the invasion to simulate the North's use of tunnels under the DMZ...so that was no great shock to me when 3 battalions show up in my rear area on turn 1 threatening my retreat path and proceed to attack "south" towards my bridge.

On my half of the turn I see this a huge mistake on my opponents part, as he has left the tunnel and therefore his supply source, unoccupied. I plop down 2 companies of Air Cav on that tunnel and think I've isolated his infiltrators. Of course I've completely forgotten about the notion of protected hexes...I mean, this is in the middle of the map, protection is for map edges right? LOL Imagine my disappointment when on turn 2 the reinforcements arrive through that tunnel and those 2 companies just disappear. The only saving grace being that my opponent also failed to realize it was a protected hex and spent a lot of artillery shelling those two companies down to cadres before hitting the reinforcement button.

So....does knowing the map and reinforcements schedules help you? Probably. But think of how many opportunities to laugh at ourselves we'd lose if we study them too closely. ;)

But in the end, I know I have an advantage over many gained from years of play test work, so if someone wants to study a scenario very closely before playing me, I don't begrudge them the info.

[Marquo]

In the History of PzC it is written than a certain player, alias Marquo, bitterly complained that certain ladder sharks were preying on newbies by using detailed knowledge of the schedule of reinforcements, to simply lay in wait and devour columns of reinforcements whole. This practice simply destroyed all the fun of playing B'44. Imagine engaging in a long scenario only to find that your opponent's strategy was to take Bastogne, and instead of pushing west towards the Meuse, instead to drive south and annhillate all the reinforcements piecemeal as they were brought into play. The PzC Gods listened to the supplications, and protected hexes appeared soon after.

The only way to remedy this is to allow a player to choose between several different entry hexes because currently the hexes are defined by the historical reality, not the reality of the game. This leads to very bizarre and aberrant situations, and in many cases forces players to respect what happened 45 years ago, not today. This causes an inherent inflexibilty in the flow of the game.

I do not beleive that it is irregular to study the initial disposition of forces or the reinforcement schedule because many players such as myself, have a fairly precise historical knowledge of the campaign, which I can't simply ignore. I do beleive that once the game begins nothing is predictable - except where the reinforcements arrive.

Marquo :)

[Bidermann]

Regarding reinforcements ,it would be nice to have a random entry point so that with in 5 hexs on each of side of supposed entry, troops can apear. In that way in would reflect the commanders reaction to a force blocking the main entry point.

[James Ward]

Regarding reinforcements ,it would be nice to have a random entry point so that with in 5 hexs on each of side of supposed entry, troops can apear. In that way in would reflect the commanders reaction to a force blocking the main entry point.

It would suck if you were entrained and suddenly ended up 5 km away from the tracks!:)