Kharkov 43 Manstein strikes back Alt

[Jazman]

In this case, I'm the one who translated this scenario to VM's "ALT" standards. I left the OOB, point values, initial deployment, forts/entrenchments, weather intact.

I'm open to tweaking any and all of it. I believe that Kharkov was starting to be evacuated under Hausser's orders (against Hitler's orders, but he managed to keep his head attached!) right as this one is starting, so maybe the first tweak is to gut the Kharkov defenses. Hausser believed he'd lose Kharkov anyway and whatever units were in there if he stayed. IOW, the situation in Kharkov as this starts should be "untenable", not "impregnable."

Suggestions for Bunker / Trench / Improved values? Right now:

BUNKER: -40% +10
Bunker: -20% +5

I'm Inclined to remove the bunkers / trenches / improved around Kharkov altogether...if someone wants to fight there, it'll rubble.

Slavyansk has Bunkers, too, maybe they should be slightly downgraded in general?

TRENCH: -40%
Trech: -20%

IMPROVED: -20%
Improved: -10%


And if the German comes back through Kharkov, not sure that having residual forts there is good in that case, too.

[Jazman]

From Nipe's "Last Victory in Russia", pg 122:

By the afternoon of 14 Feb, Hausser no longer believed that he could still hold the city. At 1530 hours he had received a message from the commander of "Das Reich," Herbert Vahl, reporting that the division's last reserves had been committed and the defensive front could no longer be held. Vahl stated that if the order to withdraw was not received by that evening, the division could not be saved.

Page 123:

At 2200 hours, "Das Reich" reported that disengagement was in progress and that it could only be stopped with great difficulty....

So by the evening of Feb 14 (happy Valentine's day!) they were on the move.

[Bidermann]

I think remove the bunkers and trenches in and and around Kharkov and Slavyansk would be a good idea. Keep some ares as improved. It would be more realistic in Kharkov just to have rubble.

The other thing to look at is the Russian morale most units are D and with the high fatigue these two things make most units close to braking before they are in combat. This is a big problem in the South east side of the map where the Russians can be rolled up very quick and the reinforcements due on the 19th have no where to enter.

You could move the entry point to futher up the map say North of the river.

The scenario has the making of a great battle, just a few tweaks would help give some balance.

[Krak]

Another thing that is "Critical" to balance in a long campaign is the replacement rate. For example in my F40 game with von Nev my losses for the German Army are almost at 50,000. But I have received almost 13,000 replacement troops after only just 58 turns. The base rate for the Germans is 6%. With A and B units this rises to 8 or 9%. In effect I have received approx 25% of my losses back after less than a week of fighting. My opponent is only receiving 2% replacements.

While I can see 5% or 6% rates for Armour is ok, IMO that kind of rate for Infantry is too high. Anyway I am not refering to this particular game (Kharkov 43) as I haven't checked it but from my own experience with campaign games its the first parameter I check. It's influence cannot be under-stated.

[Liquid_Sky]

I think it might have to do with the idea of Replacements, which is different then recovery. Recovery is fast for a unit that is depleted, but as the unit recovers strength, the recovery rate drops. For my units in Normandy (like the 12th SS), this means that it takes a couple days or so for them to get back up to about 80%-90% strength. And they never get to full strength.

For my units that get replacements....the rate is either 1% or 2%. I noticed particularly one unit that was isolated, and assualted, so had lost a little over half his strength. When I rescued him, and pulled him behind my lines, by the time his max fatigue had gone down to 0, he was at full strength again. Even my badly mauled 716th div, with its 2% replacement rate, recovered its full strength after a day or two out of the lines.

Note the difference between recovery and replacements...

Recovery gets back a percentage of the losses...so if you only have a few losses, the amount is quite small...
Replacements are a percentage of the Max Strength, and hence is the same every turn.

While I was resting my 21st panzer after some heavy fighting, I noted its total strength......

14:00hrs 4541 Men, 328 vehicles
16:00hrs 4621 Men, 331 vehicles
18:00hrs 4695 Men, 336 vehicles
20:00hrs 4755 Men, 337 vehicles
22:00hrs 4812 Men, 343 Vehicles
02:00hrs 4869 Men, 348 vehicles
06:00hrs 4933 Men, 352 vehicles

Back into combat :)

22:00hrs next day: 4442 men, 321 vehicles.


So in 5 Turns, with 1% replacement rate and a 3% recovery rate, my division got back 392 Men, and 24 Vehicles.

For the curious, the full strength would be 5227 Men, and 406 Vehicles.

[Liquid_Sky]

Okay..just for fun, I took a 549man Battalion of PzG from 21st panzer. B quality, 3% Recovery, 1% Replacements.

From 50% to 60%: 3 Turns.
From 50% to 70%: 7 Turns.
From 50% to 80%: 10 Turns.
From 50% to 90%: 17 Turns.
From 50% to 100%: 26 Turns.

From 1% to 100% it was 36 turns.

For a 12th SS PzG (A quality) 591 men Max Strength:

From 1 guy to 50%: 11 turns.
from 50% to 60%: 3 turns.
from 50% to 70%: 7 turns.
from 50% to 80%: 16 turns.
from 50% to 90%: 28 turns.
from 50% to 100%: 75 turns.

Now the A quality unit gets a bonus on recovery so instead of 3% its 6%, and the B quality unit goes from 3% to 4.5%. A graph would probably be better to show the difference as you up the recovery/replacemnt rates, but I am way to tired now :)

[Jazman]

I used the Stalingrad ALT parameter data, figuring it was a similar time period / geography.

Here's a modified version of the scenario. I've stripped the Kharkov area of bunkers / trenches, and reduced Slavyansk to trenches, which can still be formidable with Rubble.

Next up: a review of Morale. Most of the units are in accordance with VMs approach, but of course the starting point here has a lot of fatigued units, reducing the default morale. Maybe the approach here is to reduce the starting fatigue level some.

[Dog Soldier]

I have posted Jazman's post #17 from this thread in the Stalingrad 42 Mods Forum along with his file attachment.

Jaz, were you using the Stalingrad 42 title as your base for this mod?

Dog Soldier

[Jazman]

No, Kharkov 42.

[Jazman]

I've added a post here with the new scenario:

https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards...?tid=48840