German firepower

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Perhaps I should note that we also already had included a low ammo level of only 50 for the Germans and their numbers in the Reichswald are about at half strength due to the previous fighting (most MG we left still at full strenth)

Thanks for letting us know. I had a concern on the ammo because it was not previously mentioned.

I have several bookshelves full of books on the German Fallschirmjäger. How astonishing it may sound; they were that good until the end. Why they were remains one of the most interesting questions to me. Partly it is explained that the young soldiers (born 1927-1928) had been in the HJ all their life before entering service. For sure is that they were abused and indoctrinated. That this made them such good warriors is actually a very sad story I think.

I thought every German child was required to be in the Hitler Youth? I know that political indoctrination carries a lot of weight but, that did not fully translate to thus; "a morale of 8 or more" can be justified. I've watched plenty of film showing many of those HJ being taken prisoner with the tears fresh on their cheeks. I've also seen the war film of defeated German troops marching in formation to their POW pens.
I still have a problem with the higher morale ratings for the German Paras. An 8 German morale over a 5 Allied morale can be quite devastating. Especially, when the 8's are defending in built up terrain.

Maybe there will be more answers in Hans Martin Stimpel's upcoming book Die deutsche Fallschirmtruppe - Innenansichten von Führung und Truppe

Ofcourse it can be debated if some FJ units should have a lower morale than 8, some others (Fschj StuG Brig XII, Sturm Bn Hübner, Fschj Lehr-Regiment) could have 8+.

I look for forward to that book.

I do think the raise of morale of the Allies and lowering that of the German regular infantry (non FJ) in the centre of the forest is going to help. I'm also glad people seem to understand the necessity of adding smoke for playability purposes.

I think that if it is realistic it should be done and will make a huge difference. But, you are experienced enough to put in a "fix" that will help gain a more historical outcome?

Please let us know how the changes you make do come out? It may help other scenario designers and give players an inside look.

RR

[Huib Versloot]

I thought every German child was required to be in the Hitler Youth? I know that political indoctrination carries a lot of weight but, that did not fully translate to thus; "a morale of 8 or more" can be justified. I've watched plenty of film showing many of those HJ being taken prisoner with the tears fresh on their cheeks. I've also seen the war film of defeated German troops marching in formation to their POW pens.
I still have a problem with the higher morale ratings for the German Paras. An 8 German morale over a 5 Allied morale can be quite devastating. Especially, when the 8's are defending in built up terrain.

RR

I based the rating on what actually happened in the battle for the Rhineland. So historical perfomance and tenacity, that far exceeded what anyone expected. Even some FJ veterans themselves who joined autumm 1944 said they were badly trained, so perception and actual performance seems a complete contradiction.

A good example is the interview with Gunther Brabeck, platoon leader in 10/FJR 17, a former pilot. He is very critical about the combat readiness of the 6th FJD. Then again, if you look at the performance of the 6th FJD from Dec 1944 until May 1945 it is more than outstanding. I've posted this video link before. The first veteran is a Polish officer, then Brabeck and later two Canadian Veterans. For those who speak German, Brabeck has some interesting things to say. Unfortunately he passed away 2 years ago.

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=7...7200&hl=nl

Ed is right that virtually every kid in Germany had to be in HJ, so that doesn't explain everything. The 1927 genereration was the very long in HJ and the Fallschirmtruppen often got the best men and equipment. Kurt Student and his staff also seemed to have been very good at mixing the old and new into the new formations in the autumm of 1944. They made sure that a lot of troops got battle experience right away. Sometimes this led to pure waste of lives for questionable strategical goals (Kapelsche Veer, Wanssum Bridgehead and some attacks made near Arnhem late 1944). Still this doesn't explain it all, I know.
Like I said earlier to me it is one of the most interesting questions of WW2.


Giving the Allies morale 5 and the FJ 8 would not be fair indeed and would add greatly to the problem that started this thread. We'll use 7 vs 8, or maybe better 7 vs 7-8+. So in the scenario some German troops now have lower morale than the Allies, while others have higher.

Good to get some feedback on this forum. Will publish some more what David and I (basically it is his scenario) achieve in this one. for us it is important as we have many scenarios in this region planned and these would to some extent (not all are actually in the Reichswald) have the same problems.

[Dan Caviness]

I find the observation about Fallschirmjägers being former Hitler Youth to be about as relevant as the fact that most US Army soldiers were Boy Scouts.
(easy boys....BOTH were paramilitary organizations)

No matter how much esprit de corp and elan these 17 year olds must have had, the fact is they had not seen the elephant, and were not likely to stand against veteran troops. No matter how many hurrahs and patches you attach to their shiny new uniforms, you cannot seriously consider them the equal of the early war Fallschirmjägers. With an 8 morale you are.

I have not researched your battle Alfons, you have obviously done a thorough job of that. I am always impressed with your work. But, I will mention that no matter how tough these boys were, the late war Fallschirmjaeger was a mere shadow of those units that took Eban Emaul, landed in Norway, and were bled to death at Crete. Largely in vain considering Malta was the real objective. After mid 1944 they weren't even trained for airborne operations, and knew full well they would be used to fill the lines as ground troops. You have to consider that those forces in the Rheinland areas, while still viable, had also been used in Italy, some in Russia, and even Holland. I suspect few of the veterans were left.

Since they were always Luftwaffe affiliated, replacement troops at times even came from Luftwaffe Field Divisions as the war wore on and casualties became harder to replace. It is for this reason I believe your morales are too high.

I think you may also consider that as the war drew towards it's ineveitable conclusion throughout late 1944 and 1945 that all airborne troops suffered serious declines in morale. The Fallschirmjägers because of casualties, and the Allied Paratroopers due to the "why should I get killed this late in the war" syndrome. And overwhelmingly because they were getting used up. Airborne is inherently deadly and losses are always high.

Both sides eventually stopped using airborne assaults, as each sucessive operation trended towards higher and higher casualties once the opposing forces learned to deal with the tactic. Compare Eban Emaul, Crete, Market Garden, etc.

You may consider reducing the amount of MG42's, and replacing them with the Fallschirmjägers weapon of choice, the FG42. It's inherent flaws, represented as the "normal" German paratroop unit's fire ability, would go a long ways towards evening out the inherent deadly ability of the MG42. I.E., para rifle platoons rather than para MG platoons.

You go to great pains to model your scenarios realistically and attempt to get everything correct, but if as you say you have all the units set up perfectly and it is historically accurate...the British would have lost this battle would they not?

Regards,

Dan

[Huib Versloot]

No matter how much esprit de corp and elan these 17 year olds must have had, the fact is they had not seen the elephant, and were not likely to stand against veteran troops. No matter how many hurrahs and patches you attach to their shiny new uniforms, you cannot seriously consider them the equal of the early war Fallschirmjägers. With an 8 morale you are.

Dan, thanks for taking time to respond.

I thought the same for a long time, but research shows otherwise.

The game provides veteran FJ (P01225) and late war FJ (P01207). We filled most of the ranks with late war (which have lower attack/assault and defense values and are thus not equal to early war /veteran FJ) However setting morale high can be perfectly justified.
I can give tons of examples from both Allied and German literature. (Bleijenbeek, Hassum, Weeze, Moyland, Hochwald, Xanten, Bonninghardt, Bienen, Edewecht )They did stand, and held against veteran Allied troops hugely outnumbering them in men and equipment, often to the last man. These are historical facts. Ofcourse as they bled and bled in 1945 they got worse but still there were hardly any defections among the FJ right until the end in northern Germany in May 1945. In Holland the 6th FJD held the line right until surrender on May 5.
By the way these FJ did not fight in Italy or Russia. These were Students divisions of the 1st Fallschirm Armee that were formed in Holland and fought mainly in Holland and Germany. (Market Garden, Overloon, Venlo, Meijel, Kapelsche Veer, Wanssum and finally Rheinland and Germany).

Coming back to playability, I might ask David to drop FJ morale here and there, despite historical evidence.

[Herr Straße Laufer]

No matter how much esprit de corp and elan these 17 year olds must have had, the fact is they had not seen the elephant, and were not likely to stand against veteran troops. No matter how many hurrahs and patches you attach to their shiny new uniforms, you cannot seriously consider them the equal of the early war Fallschirmjägers. With an 8 morale you are.

Dan, thanks for taking time to respond.

I thought the same for a long time, but research shows otherwise.

The game provides veteran FJ (P01225) and late war FJ (P01207). We filled most of the ranks with late war (which have lower attack/assault and defense values and are thus not equal to early war /veteran FJ) However setting morale high can be perfectly justified.
I can give tons of examples from both Allied and German literature. (Bleijenbeek, Hassum, Weeze, Moyland, Hochwald, Xanten, Bonninghardt, Bienen, Edewecht )They did stand, and held against veteran Allied troops hugely outnumbering them in men and equipment, often to the last man. These are historical facts. Ofcourse as they bled and bled in 1945 they got worse but still there were hardly any defections among the FJ right until the end in northern Germany in May 1945. In Holland the 6th FJD held the line right until surrender on May 5.
By the way these FJ did not fight in Italy or Russia. These were Students divisions of the 1st Fallschirm Armee that were formed in Holland and fought mainly in Holland and Germany. (Market Garden, Overloon, Venlo, Meijel, Kapelsche Veer, Wanssum and finally Rheinland and Germany).

Coming back to playability, I might ask David to drop FJ morale here and there, despite historical evidence.

I'm in agreement with Dan on this one.
I understand your research is thorough. I am not too sure that the conclusion you have drawn from it is as accurate.
Based on the historical record up to this period the Germans can be said to have "fought better". At least, in that, Patton agreed.
But, if the ground favored the defenders, along with the famously effective Mg42, the Germans should have given the Brits a very rough go?
Yet, your research showed that; *"Historically however the British managed to get through the Reichswald with less losses than the Germans, even if their losses were high."* Would that not beg the thought that maybe, this day, this battle, this moment, was not their day to warrant a high morale rating?

Usually the less the losses for the attacker, the better fought the battle or, the lesser resistance of the defender?

Somewhere there is balance to be had. It may be in the initial thoughts of the high morale for the FJ units based on their "previous" history of performance?



RR

[Huib Versloot]

Yet, your research showed that; *"Historically however the British managed to get through the Reichswald with less losses than the Germans, even if their losses were high."* Would that not beg the thought that maybe, this day, this battle, this moment, was not their day to warrant a high morale rating?




RR

Perhaps I should have explained. A lot of the Reichswald was NOT held by FJ troops but by the 84 ID.
In those areas historically Brits made the best progress. Our game map is much larger than I could show on the printscreen and most of the FJ troops are not in strength in the Reichswald but elsewhere.

However in our game the Brits were also shot to shreds by the MGs of the 84 ID just the same. Lowering the morale of this unit from 6 to 5 (and raising that of the Brits from 6 to 7) might help resolve this. If that helps we've made good progress in the design, even if in other areas on the map the FJ troops have high morale, in the less forested areas they face hundreds of tanks, massive artillery and airstrikes that can engage them at a distance. With sufficient smoke and all this fire support the Brit infantry might have a shot.

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Yet, your research showed that; *"Historically however the British managed to get through the Reichswald with less losses than the Germans, even if their losses were high."* Would that not beg the thought that maybe, this day, this battle, this moment, was not their day to warrant a high morale rating?




RR

Perhaps I should have explained. A lot of the Reichswald was NOT held by FJ troops but by the 84 ID.
In those areas historically Brits made the best progress. Our game map is much larger than I could show on the printscreen and most of the FJ troops are not in strength in the Reichswald but elsewhere.

However in our game the Brits were also shot to shreds by the MGs of the 84 ID just the same. Lowering the morale of this unit from 6 to 5 (and raising that of the Brits from 6 to 7) might help resolve this. If that helps we've made good progress in the design, even if in other areas on the map the FJ troops have high morale, in the less forested areas they face hundreds of tanks, massive artillery and airstrikes that can engage them at a distance. With sufficient smoke and all this fire support the Brit infantry might have a shot.

Seems to have the makings of a good start to fix the problem from within the framework of the game engine! :thumbs_up:

You are in for a lot of work in time/testing. :bow:

Good luck!



RR

[Dan Caviness]

Alfons:

:soap:
The German Army in WWII was obviously one of the finest fighting forces ever assembled by one nation. The game designers, all the way back to it's Talonsoft roots, were well aware of this and built those into the game in two main areas. One, with morale advantage, and two, with their firepower.
Not only the vaunted MG in question, but with their standard rifle/bicycle/motorcycle/PzGdr values. They are superior to all other units in the game. Firepower and morale.

I believe you do your scenarios a disservice by further exacerbating this shift in the mistaken belief that you are discovering a truth others are not taking into account.
We all get it, we do.

The game does an excellent job of modeling the fact that the German army, while vastly outnumbered, consistently out fought and out manuvered their opponents for the first 4 years of the war. It really does.

So...when you further adjust/improve them to model this....pushing that edge just a "little further"...you can create monster scenarios like the one your trying to adjust at present.

The inherent "stock" morales of German units (6s/7s) are vastly superior to the stock Allied values (5s/6s). That one point shift is huge. Anytime you put a first side in a lower morale situation then the defender (not saying this didn't and still doesn't happen but it's not likely and certainly doesn't make for a very enjoyable game) your creating a bloodbath.

I think your on the right track adjusting this.

The Talonsoft designer's one point morale shift allows for scenarios where you can choose the high end of Allied morale, and the low end of Axis ones, to create a level playing field, and the original designers knew well what they were doing. It works.

Then of course you can always stick to your "guns" (sorry) and simply adjust the victory levels so the Allied player can be slaughtered and still achieve a minor victory....make the Axis player REALLY slaughter them to get a draw...and knife every last one of the bastids to eke out a minor...lol...

Adjusting Objective values and Victory Conditions are the single easiest way to make games competitive. That being said, it's usually not fun to play in a game that is totally one sided no matter the victory conditions, so there are limits as to how far you can go when employing this method.

In your scenario it appears the MG units are mostly static, and/or fixed positions so this last point may not apply. It does go towards your original question though on the German MG's ability within the game...

I would like to reiterate that the German MG units may be too quick.

I don't know the details of what it took to get an MG34 or 42 up and moving, but I think it's pretty doubtful they could realistically move as fast as their PzGdr brethren. Most of the other MG units in the game are slower than their infantry counterparts in the other armys. Yet here's the MG42, throwing 16 point blank and reaching out six hexes to still deal damage and firing thrice a turn....and they can hump the thing like an M1 or a Mauser?:chin:

This is where I'd like to hear some justification from the powers that be.

I can't see it.

As RR says....good luck with your testing...keep pluggin'...you'll get it...

Dan

[nikoda]

Hi everyone

Sorry to lift up this thread again, but since i'm a new member of the forum and i think that the discussion subject is very interesting, i'd like to contribute to bring my own stone to the building.

About the geman firepower : As you know all of you, the base german infantry tactics were based around the dreadfull mg34/42. Yep, that weapon was revolutionary at this time : tremendous rate of fire, and available for many purposes ( light, heavy mg, aa purpose etc.)

As a matter of fact, US intelligence considered that the firepower of a hundred germans was equivalent to about 120 anglo-americans and 160-200 soviets troops.
I think the game try to reflect this as some of you said. But since the game -from my point of view- does not reflect some of his drawbacks, i'd like to bring some few infos about this :
( this comes from an article in french, i did my best to translate it in a correct english...)

Limits of the german MG42 :

" Our men have learnt how to bypass the germans light machine guns. Those light mg's got so hight rate of fire that they cannot cover fully a great surface of terrain. When our men are well stretched enought on the ground, those Mg's cannot harm them that much. In reality, those weapons are very ammo's wasting. And our men have learnt how to take advantage of the few moment when the germans firing teams are changing the gun. This occurs quite often according to the hight rate of fire.
The ground covered by such a machine gun is well covered, but in a very limited space..."

US Army, Intelligence Bulletin Vol.III n°4 December 1944.

Alfons, maybe you could try to reflect that. I think the idea of very limited ammo supply level is a good one. I don't know that much about the technical stuffs of the game, but if possible mg platoon more often out of ammo could relfect that and reduce their terrible efficiency.:)

About morale value of some units i would say as Napoleon said : "a soldier become the man of his uniform" This point in particular is absolutely true : how to explain that some "kids", without some much war experience could become some war beasts? Yes, the "esprit de corps"
can make some miracles , but but ...
i also agree about the idea "how can some HJ teenagers could face efficiently late war allied veterans" reminding images of captured youngs waffen ss with tears on theirs cheaks. Ok, Just an idea, i don't know if possible with the game mechanism : could it be possible to allow a certain value of morale and make it halved in case of losses ?
I mean imagine an ss or fj platoon with a morale of 8, most of the troopers as arrogant stubborn vindicative 17years old soldiers. But wenewer they take some heavy casualties, they become as they were always inside : scared kids . This could reflect that loosing too much close friends ( some of the recruits know each other since school, village etc ) affect their morale dramatically ??

Ok, Alfons, i wish you good luck for testing and designing your scenario.:)

Nico

[Kool Kat]

Hi everyone

Sorry to lift up this thread again, but since i'm a new member of the forum and i think that the discussion subject is very interesting, i'd like to contribute to bring my own stone to the building.

Welcome! You are joining a great club with some good folk! :smoke: I wish you the best in all your CS games.