V-hex Placement, Win SP, Victory Levels

[Cross]

Sorry for this long post. This is a few of things I’ve been thinking about lately. Read it if you’re interested, and I’d definitely like to hear perspectives on these issues.


V-hex Placement (PBEM Meeting Engagements)

Years ago all my PBEM battles let the AI decide where the V-hexes would be. Then someone suggested editing the V-hexes to more realistic objectives, like bridges, hill tops, town squares, crossroads etc. Made so much sense, never let the AI decide again.

To make it fair, I would usually be careful to make the 21 V-hexes equal value, and equal total distance from the centre line on both sides of the map; and, as always, the locations were subject to approval.

But ran into an issue recently during a PBEM Campaign. The V-hexes placement was equal, but in the inevitable race to the middle, I captured the most, because I moved first.

It’s not unusual for one player to initially capture more, especially the first player to move. In traditional PBEM games I usually play an opponent at least twice, and we take it in turns going first so it’s not such a big deal.

However, in this case we were playing a PBEM campaign where I move first in every battle. My opponent correctly pointed out that it wasn’t fair for me to ‘start’ with more V-hexes.

So I got out a pencil and graph paper and tried to figure out a way to make meeting engagements fairer.

If the V-hexes are spread evenly over the centre area, and movement was equal, player 1 and player 2 would gain the same amount of V-hexes by the end of their second move, and also their third move etc.

However, the problem is that the opposing sides run into each other before this can be achieved. This gives the advantage to the player that moves first.

Moving the V-hexes towards player 2 doesn’t actually solve the problem, because one of the players will still capture more than the other, unless you managed to figure out all the roads, terrain, speeds and v-hex positions; or more likely got lucky.

The only way to make the situation fair (that I can think of) is to make sure that an equal number of V-hexes are reached by each player before they run into each other.

I have a theory that this can be done by not putting any V-hexes in the central zone. Let’s call this central zone ‘no man’s land’ or the DMZ. The size of the DMZ should be as small as possible. It would probably only have to be 10 hexes (from 45 to 55) for most 100 wide maps, and perhaps 15 for wider maps.

I’m not saying put all the V-hexes in a line just beyond the DMZ. Place one sides V-hexes say 5 to 20 hexes from the centre line, on hill tops, cross roads etc. Then add the total distance all 10 are from the centre line. Do the same for the other side, and make sure their V-hexes are about the same total distance from the centre.

This should guarantee each side 10 V-hexes at the start of a meeting engagement:

• Place 10 V-hexes on each side of the map, but none in the DMZ.
• V-hexes should be of equal total distance from the centre line.
• Pre-set the V-hexes with each sides flag (so must assume already defended).
• Change all V-hexes to the same value (5 to 250)
• Place the 21st V-Hex in a corner as neutral.

However, you still have to use a little common sense with V-hex placement. If side ‘A’ has a direct road across the DMZ to side ‘B’s V-hex, but side ‘B’ has to go through a thick wood to reach it, you should obviously place that V-hex further away from the centre line.

This will make it harder for either side to achieve a win, because they will have to attack a little deeper, but this challenge is the same for both sides. I would recommend using the Blitz scoring system with a ‘DMZ’, which enables you to get a win without having to capture 14 or 15 V-hexes.

I haven’t yet tested this DMZ theory, so if any of you try out, let me know how it worked, on this thread.


Wining SP (standard scoring)

In a standard game of Win SP you have to score at least twice as many points as your opponent to achieve a marginal victory. Anything less than that - two to one ratio - is a draw, or a loss. So to win you’ll probably need to capture twice as many V-hexes as your opponent, and suffer less casualties.

There’s two ways to score points:

1. Capture V-hexes
2. Inflict losses on your opponent.

In WinSP you only get points for the V-Hexes you control at the end of the battle.

The point value of the V-hexes is important. It’s probably not worth risking even a single infantry section over a 20 point victory hex. Where a 200 point victory hex represents a lot of infantry casualties, or perhaps a couple of tanks.

The higher the value of V-hexes, the less significant casualties are for obtaining a win. Losses are more significant with low valued V-hexes on the map. This is even true (to a lesser extent) when using the Blitz scoring system.

When I set up a battle, I usually set all the V-hexes to the same value (I often set them all at 150) to make the objectives and situation more clear.

Sometimes, if I think a battle might be close, I’ll actually keep a loose record of damage inflicted and losses. Then in the second half of a battle I can make better decisions about what I need to do to win.

This paid off in a recent PBEM Campaign battle, where I held 11 V-hexes to my opponents 10, and I was closing in on 4 of them. If I was successful this would give me 15 V-hexes. Typically, in a standard scoring game, I’d consider 15 the ‘magic’ number. 15 V-hexes will be a win even if you’ve taken identical casualties as your opponent.

But in this battle I’d suffered greater casualties. My tank squadron were up against Tigers and suffered some misfortune. Anyway, I soon figured out that even if I succeeded in capturing the additional 4 V-hexes without further losses, it would still be a draw. I’d need at least 16 V-hexes to get a win, and that wasn’t going to happen. So from that point, I knew a draw was coming, so my strategy changed to defensive, exploiting opportunity to inflict losses, and force preservation, as this was a PBEM campaign.


Victory Levels

While on the topic of Winning SP, I’m sure this has been discussed in the past, but if you use the standard SP scoring you get one of the following victory levels:

Draw
Marginal Victory
Decisive Victory

But when you report a game on the ladder the Blitz victory levels are:

Draw
Minor Victory
Medium Victory
Decisive Victory
Overwhelming Victory

How do you guys convert a Marginal or Decisive into the Blitz ladder levels?

I guess this is another reason to use the Blitz scoring system.

[Fokkov]

I agree, you have some good points here.:thumbs_up:
For my self i like to place the VH's on importent targets as the ones you mentioned.
And most of the times i place a few further to the rear with higher value to make it worth to push on the attack to capture these instead of stopping and defend what you had grabbed.
Value of the ones in the centre around 100 and the ones in the rear up to 200/250.

[Weasel]

Vesku and I just put the V hexes slightly toward P2 side by about 5-10 hexes to offset the P1 first move advantage. Seems to work. Flags in all my games are set to 75VP.

[Weasel]

How do you guys convert a Marginal or Decisive into the Blitz ladder levels?

You don't and is why I created the SP scoring system, sick of draws 95% of the time.

[zeiss]

I think the player 1 "move first"-advantage is nicely balanced by player 2s "last turn"-advantage. The latter is more often game deciding than the former.

[2ndLt_Fjun]

I think the player 1 "move first"-advantage is nicely balanced by player 2s "last turn"-advantage. The latter is more often game deciding than the former.

That's a very good point, and a more difficult one to counter too. I really like the way Weasel and Walrus solves that in the Achtung Panzer tournament. There's an example here ("turn 23 rule"):
http://www.firedrake.com.au/achtungpanze...rules.html

[Thexder]

I really like the way Weasel and Walrus solves that in the Achtung Panzer tournament. There's an example here ("turn 23 rule"):
http://www.firedrake.com.au/achtungpanze...rules.html

I don't know if one can say that the Turn 23 rule solves this. Effectively 23rd turn becomes the "last turn" in these battles. I don't know how important the VLs are in that tourney but if the winner is decided based on the VLs alone, there's not much sense to even play the last turns:cheeky:.

I've often had a rule saying that if the owner of a VL changes during the last turn, both sides get 0,5VLs.

My take is the one that has been said here before: the advantage P1 gets from getting the VLs first is paid back in the disadvatage he has during the last turns. But the relative value of these advatages depends on how important the points and VLs are in deciding the winner.

,
Thexder

[Weasel]

You cannot use the T23 rule in standard games since our objective areas are a minimum 5x5 hex area, so a player could easily have units hidden in that area without the other player knowing (talking from experience here). When it comes to flags I find the best way to offset the move is to reduce their value, in my games a 75pt flag or a single tank in WW2 equivalent.

[jadpanther]

Easy way to do it. Play a longer game, that way one side will be falling back or fleeing and you will know your results. If your basing your victories on the flags your missing the spirit of the game, "Destroy the enemy". Weasel's chart works well for scoring these matches. It is well thought and takes the fflags and points into consideration. In the end don't overthink it, it's just a game. Just enjoy it.

Jad

[Cross]

Fokkov, That make sense about the higher value for deep V-hexes. I'll have to use that.

In a PBEM campaign, I can see how banning the capture of V-hexes on the last turn may actually be sensible. As someone pointed out, the next to last turn then becomes like the last turn.

But in a PBEM campaign you don't get to see a replay of the last turn, or even the final map (for security/ force hiding reasons). So at least you'll see the final V-hex ownership on the next to last turn.

I guess this may be important if you're not using the standard results but the Blitz scoring system, because otherwise you just have to take player two's word for it that he captured 5 hexes in the final turn :chin:


Jad, I know what you mean about longer games, but in campaigns that wouldn't work. Force preservation and all that...


Does anyone remember how we used to convert Marginal or Decisive Victories before the Blitz scoring system was introduced?