WW III Version 1.6 Team Mirrior Game Notice

[Zemke]

To anyone out there I have "upgraded" the campaign scenario again, and wish to test/play a mirror team game if possible. I understand there may not be enough players who would be willing, but thought of asking a lot and see what we end up with. Right now I have two other players.

Expectations:
1. Reasonable return rate or best we can do with a large team.
2. Four or more players per team...again if we can.
3. An overall Commander of each team who can also play as a subordinate commander, but someone needs to be overall in command of each side. I will be leading my team.
4. Certain house rules will be in effect to lessen gamey play with helicopters and FASCAM.

Version 1.6 Changes:
1. Up gunned WP tanks
2. Raised morale of 2nd Line WP forces
3. Reduced WP artillery concentration at game start
4. Reduced helicopter defense further (a lot) now only +1 of stock with deadly ADA.
5. Reduced number and size of WP helicopter units to stock levels
6. Added dedicated recon helicopter units to WP
7. Increase ADA ratings for all sides and now infantry have a AA range of 2, unless SF. This is to simulate MPADS or portable STINGER and SA-7 should fired missiles better, and reduce helicopter effectiveness. (This is still open to change given JDR's thoughts, we'll see.)
8. ALL helicopter units now receive replacements less than the main forces.
9. Reduced WP artillery hard attack ratings to stock levels +1 or +2, exception for certain WP artillery to simulate ICM ammo, although limited.
10. Changed set up some, no longer to NATO Eng units start on bridges, some do, but most do not.
11. Increased 100mm AT gun hard attack and defense ratings. AT guns are hard to spot and are small targets.
12. Many other smaller changes.

Post if you are interested in playing.

[JDR Dragoon]

7. Increase ADA ratings for all sides and now infantry have a AA range of 2, unless SF. This is to simulate MPADS or portable STINGER and SA-7 should fired missles better, and reduce helo effectiveness.


Won´t this just lead to Helos being able to exhaust the opportunity fire of infantry units at long ranges thereby setting them up for an easier assault by ground units?

[Zemke]

I guess that is one way to look at it. If a player wants to risk high value helicopter assets that don't replace as fast as other units, he could use that method for short term gain. However, he would not have any helicopters left if he played this way because the high loss rate cannot be sustained over time. But you are correct, if a player wanted a, he could do it.

This also makes infantry more valuable, and encourages more combined arms stacks with infantry. But a lone infantry unit could be "gamed" in this manner, but this same method is done with the one hex range as well. I am just increasing the danger zone to helicopters by one hex.

The purpose is to keep helicopters, but reduce some of the unrealistic play by trying to use the system at hand, (the editor). As Glenn has said, the model for helicopters in Danube 85 is not perfect, and is open to abuse. This is an attempt to reduce that by a combination of increased risk to attack helicopters and reduced defense for helicopters, making play, as you described above, very costly in the long run.

You want to play?

[JDR Dragoon]

This is an attempt to reduce that by a combination of increased risk to attack helicopters and reduced defense for helicopters, making play, as you described above, very costly in the long run.

But your defense values for helicopters are actually 100% higher than in the stock DF85 game (at least in version 1.05). For instance: AH1 in DF85=Def 5, but in your scenario it has Def=10/11 (varying upon model probably). Of course there is also more AA systems around (mostly missiles, but not "Guided", so their fire effects are quite diminished at the longer range brackets), but since The 2 hex AA fire by the infantry is not "Guided", the effect upon a Defensive value 10-12 Helo is likely to be minimal (unless of course you upped the Infantrys AA value from the 4-6 it is in 1.05 to something bigger in V. 1.06)

You want to play?

Where can I download 1.06?

Another comment: The Morale values of some NATO units seems quite generous, with values of A/B being common (about 50/50 split) in most US, British and W. German units. Coupled with the hardware advantage of the more modern NATO units and the fact that the WAPA side doesn´t really have attack odds in overall numbers (given the large numbers of NATO rear area troops and overseas reinforcements) this might prove to be a problem with regard to balance.

[Zemke]

Again you have to keep in mind the premise of this scenario. WP does not win by reaching the back of the map but holding a forward line long enough, or rather a back and forth scenario where the WP attack is exhausted at some point and NATO has to attack to regain lost territory to win. So the key is to balance the scenario where WP has the ability to reach a line deep enough within Germany, that they can hold, or delay NATO. The Warsaw Pact have the largest force ratio at the start of any scenario to date, while NATO has the same units. Granted over time NATO will get stronger by design due to REFORGER units and other reinforcements coming into play. But I have not gotten far enough to know if those REFORGER units are enough to make a difference against not only the starting WP units, but the addition of 2nd echelon forces as well. I appreciate your comments and suggestions.

I will e-mail you what I have so far.

[Spooky]

Count me In

[Rev Rico]

IIRC a unit firing AA does not count against its normal 3 shots so that tactic of using helos to draw fire won't work.

[Rev Rico]

and, of course, I'm game for trying this baby again!

[JDR Dragoon]

IIRC a unit firing AA does not count against its normal 3 shots so that tactic of using helos to draw fire won't work.

Only against offmap airplanes. Against Helos it will draw OpFire just as with any other unit on-map.

[Rev Rico]

IIRC a unit firing AA does not count against its normal 3 shots so that tactic of using helos to draw fire won't work.

Only against offmap airplanes. Against Helos it will draw OpFire just as with any other unit on-map.

Ah, yes. I see.