Quick ladder question...

Herr Straße Laufer · 06-04-2009, 10:42 AM,

Mojo26 Wrote:Fun factor (as in an engaging, friendly, and interesting opponent), learning experience, and fair challenge...what else could one ask for?

:)

Precisely! Thanks Mojo26. Big Grin

I hope the Matrix team realizes that too.
It's not always about a "most realistic" scenario, "realistic" game engine formula, most accurate map, or biggest "ladder whore".
It is also about play balance, fun, challenge, and the "person" our opponents truly are?

I've played among the top players in the club. Some of my most rewarding game experiences were not against those players. :smoke:
And, it was not due to winning or losing. :rolleyes:
I get more reward from someone who really tries to play the game and "gets it" along the way.

cheers

RR

Chuck10mtn · 06-04-2009, 11:35 AM,

Hi Ed,
I would like too see more people who play for the pure enjoyment of the game. I'm sure that there are alot of other players who play like that. You will help out players, teach, coach and give advice on what to do as your playing. I need to fire up a game and send it your way. Maybe we should add a rate your opponent catagory to see who other players enjoy playing. I know I'm opening a monster up but its just a suggestion, or something different to allow player input about other players.

Chuck

Herr Straße Laufer · 06-04-2009, 07:31 PM,

Chuck10mtn Wrote:Hi Ed,
I would like too see more people who play for the pure enjoyment of the game. I'm sure that there are alot of other players who play like that. You will help out players, teach, coach and give advice on what to do as your playing. I need to fire up a game and send it your way. Maybe we should add a rate your opponent catagory to see who other players enjoy playing. I know I'm opening a monster up but its just a suggestion, or something different to allow player input about other players.

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

I have a slot waiting for you! :smoke:

"Rate the opponent"? Wow! Eek

I'm not sure the club could handle that. They had enough problems with the forum "clickies" and the current forum "report" button. :rolleyes:

Though, sometimes we get forum topics where players state who their toughest opponents are. I guess a "most helpful" topic header would be interesting. Then again, as Umbro said, "nice guys finish last? :)

cheers

Ed

Huib Versloot · 06-04-2009, 09:35 PM,

I once had a severe drop in ELO after Remko accidentally reported the same match (that I lost) 5 times. I think my ELO remained the same after 4 of the 5 results were deleted. Or is it normally corrected again after the next match is reported?
Anyone (Steel God or Umbro) now if we have a small bug there?

Mike Abberton · 06-04-2009, 09:59 PM,

ELO, as implemented at the Blitz, also has the flaw of not taking into account the "balance" of the scenario. It's obviously less of a problem in chess where the only imbalance is who goes first.

For example, if you play an unbalanced scenario from the "losing" side against a newer player or one who is less skilled than you are (in an effort to "level" the playing field some), than you will take a hit in ELO if you lose the unwinnable scenario.

Now, I am in no way suggesting that we should, or even could, try to incorporate balance into the equation (way too subjective). Just another caution that ELO is not a perfect judge of relative skill levels. A useful tool, sure, but not definitive.

umbro · 06-05-2009, 05:41 AM,

Alfons de Palfons Wrote:I once had a severe drop in ELO after Remko accidentally reported the same match (that I lost) 5 times. I think my ELO remained the same after 4 of the 5 results were deleted. Or is it normally corrected again after the next match is reported?
Anyone (Steel God or Umbro) now if we have a small bug there?

It's not a bug it's a feature! :-)

Seriously, ELO, by nature has to be calculated in the order games are reported (so as to take into account the players' current ELO). Thus, it is not possible to "back out" a reported result after it has been applied.

However, there is an ELO management routine that recalculates ELO from the beginning of time which will correct errors of the type that Huib reports. Because it has to reprocess every result submitted to theBlitz this routine is a bit of a database hog and is only run sparingly. I should probably have added a count of deleted scenario reports since it was last run so as to give the ladder management a clue as to when to run it. Or perhaps have it run itself when enough detritus had accumulated. However, 'twas many moons ago, and I didn't.

umbro

umbro · 06-05-2009, 05:49 AM,

Mike Abberton Wrote:ELO, as implemented at the Blitz, also has the flaw of not taking into account the "balance" of the scenario. It's obviously less of a problem in chess where the only imbalance is who goes first.

For example, if you play an unbalanced scenario from the "losing" side against a newer player or one who is less skilled than you are (in an effort to "level" the playing field some), than you will take a hit in ELO if you lose the unwinnable scenario.

Now, I am in no way suggesting that we should, or even could, try to incorporate balance into the equation (way too subjective). Just another caution that ELO is not a perfect judge of relative skill levels. A useful tool, sure, but not definitive.

'Tis true!

I did spend a number of brain cycles on how to implement a "balance" argument to our ELO. I actually came up with a workable solution. However, prior to my involvement a bug had been introduced into the scenario balance rating system which had "flipped" the meanings of the ratings, such that pro-Axis became pro-Allied and vice versa.

Many scenarios had been rated using both meanings, and as such their "Balance" ratings were out of whack (as it were).

We fixed that bug but there was so much bad data that was unknowable (you know, a unknown known unknown) that I decided not to incorporate "balance" into ELO.

The statistical argument is that if enough games are played the balance should not have a significant effect as it will even out between players. Of course, there are those masochists among us who prefer taking the underdog...

umbro

Von Luck · 06-05-2009, 06:04 AM,

Ed you have that spot on mate some play for the fun of the game win loss not an issue. cheers

**Jason Petho** · 06-05-2009, 06:16 AM,

Von Luck Wrote:Ed you have that spot on mate some play for the fun of the game win loss not an issue.

Precisely indeed... and why 90%+ of my games go unreported.

It just doesn't matter to me.

Jason Petho

Herr Straße Laufer · 06-05-2009, 07:23 AM,

Jason Petho Wrote:90%+ of my games go unreported.

It just doesn't matter to me.

Jason Petho

A large percentage of my games used to go unreported.
I guess I should have not reported more so that my ELO would not be so bad? ;)
I have been less willing to not report games lately. I play many less games now and I value my time playing them more, so I'd rather report a loss or a draw over a non-report. :smoke:

Fun and good opponents are the keys to the game's vitality.
For me, it has lasted for almost as long as I've been a member. And, was so for a couple years prior to joining the club. Though, PBEM opponents were much harder to find until I joined the club. :)

ELO scores never meant much to me since when they were put in place. I always did a bit more research on my opponents than could be seen in the ELO score. :chin: Whip