Place your ideas for a new Modern Campaign/Panzer Campaign Here

[P.Ako]

All I want is a continuation of the Danube 85 map which includes the rest of Denmark and Austria. That's all- I'll do the rest. You've done it before with the addition of the Berlin segment to NGP, so please HPS stop making us have to abstract amphibious & airborne invasions and the Austrian plain.

I know that the mountainous parts of Austria and Scandinavia aren't going to work in the map engine as it currently stands, but arguably the 'missing' parts of Eastern Austria and Denmark should have been in the original release.

Easy for me to say as I won't be generating the map.

Yep, i also think that they should do it, furthermore, i would expand it to cover even the north eastern part of Italy but i would not include the whole denmark because it would be almost impossible to conquest due to the game engine and all the islands that Denmark is compossed of (it would require a strategical decission to generate an amphibious assault on each island...), so about Denmark i would say to stick to the Jutland peninsula and make it to reach until Aalborg.

About the mountain parts, well a engine can always be modified to include impassable hexagons for tanks or other heavy vehicles (for example, imagine an area where the tanks can only move in road hexagons and the light infantry (the one motorized by trucks) can move in any hexagon.

[JDR Dragoon]

but i would not include the whole denmark because it would be almost impossible to conquest due to the game engine and all the islands that Denmark is compossed of (it would require a strategical decission to generate an amphibious assault on each island...),

No, it would merely require that the scenario designer do not put any victory hexes on any of those islands. Thus they will be of no importance to the outcome. What matters is Zealand and the large island immediately to the south and west of it (Møn, Falster, Lolland, Fyn).

so about Denmark i would say to stick to the Jutland peninsula and make it to reach until Aalborg.

If you are going to do the rest of the peninsula you do the rest of the peninsula. A hexside spanning bridge is all you need to cross even the largest water obstacle on the map.

[P.Ako]

If you are going to do the rest of the peninsula you do the rest of the peninsula. A hexside spanning bridge is all you need to cross even the largest water obstacle on the map.

Yes, and an engineer unit is all you need to blow it up and make that island unreachable.

[JDR Dragoon]

Yes, and an engineer unit is all you need to blow it up and make that island unreachable.

Ehhrrrmm. You do realise that your own engineers can build bridges in place of the ones destroyed?

[P.Ako]

^ Yes, i know that certain type of engineers can build new bridges, but in this case, where the bridge to an island would, probably, be more than one hexagon length.... so if you destroy the first hexagon's bridge, then the island would be completely isolated and without the possibility of rebuilding that bridge (because AFAIK the engineers can't build multi hexagon bridges)

[JDR Dragoon]

^ Yes, i know that certain type of engineers can build new bridges, but in this case, where the bridge to an island would, probably, be more than one hexagon length.... so if you destroy the first hexagon's bridge, then the island would be completely isolated and without the possibility of rebuilding that bridge (because AFAIK the engineers can't build multi hexagon bridges)

There would be no areas of that description anywhere on the map as far as I can see.

[P.Ako]

There would be no areas of that description anywhere on the map as far as I can see.

Very well, taking a look at this map:



You can see that between Jutland and Fyn island there isn't very much distance, ok, one hexagon bridge would do it perfectly.

But, how would you invade Denmark's main island? Sjaeland? it would require an amphibious assault because obviously you can't invade it from Jutland. Furthermore, once that you have conquered the main island, the troops allocated to that task would have to remain there because there is no way to get them out of there!!


EDIT: By looking at the maps i realize how important is to include railroad in Danube Front, not for transport issues, but for bridging issues...

[JDR Dragoon]

You can see that between Jutland and Fyn island there isn't very much distance, ok, one hexagon bridge would do it perfectly.

Indeed. Coincidentally we now know that WAPA planned to take the island on the fly using forces (a Motorized Rifle division I seem to recall) from the army driving north into Jutland.

But, how would you invade Denmark's main island? Sjaeland? it would require an amphibious assault because obviously you can't invade it from Jutland.

Indeed! Here is the map from a polish 1954 staff exercise. Tell me what you see:

Furthermore, once that you have conquered the main island, the troops allocated to that task would have to remain there because there is no way to get them out of there!!

Well, the same essentially goes for any NATO units already presents or committed later through strategy options. Besides the invasion itself would happen between D+3-5 and the WAPA estimates was, that it would take about 6 days to secure the greater Zealand area with outlying islands (but that timeframe presumed the heavy use of nukes against the defender, so we might presume that it will take somewhat longer without quite so many nasty WMDs to chuck around). A 161 turn game of DF85 is 23 days long so the units committed against the danish islands would likely not be usable against anything else within the timeframe of a full game of DF85

[Aaron]

What do i see, in 1954 it could have worked, in the 80s it would have been a dream. No way at all to accomplish that one. You could always take the ferry but real men dont take the ferry. HPS needs to extend the map in the east to at least WARSAW and in the south to the Italian border to include all of Austria so you can have that planned invasion of SGF and the HPA threw Austria. Would like to c it extended West to Luxembourg.

Aaron

[JDR Dragoon]

What do i see, in 1954 it could have worked, in the 80s it would have been a dream. No way at all to accomplish that one. You could always take the ferry but real men dont take the ferry.

Well, there was some criticism of the concept, especially in the NVA who didn´t really want to lavish scarce resources on maintaining their small amphibious capability (funnily enough the East German Navy was very keen on the proposition, since it meant they would be given a starring role). But the plans were continually updated and the navies of the WAPA navies in the Baltic built up contingents of various amphibious ships during the 60s and 70s (so they wouldn´t have taken the ferry, although a 1977 plan has an NVA battalion using a civilian ferry at the start of hostilities to launch a coup-de-main against a major port to capture it intact....). The last updated plan complex we have is a principle sketch dated 1983 from the hands of Marshall Kulikov (the chief of the soviet general staff) detailing how the War, when or if it came, should be fought by the Front responsible for the conquest of Denmark and the drive along the North Sea coast towards Holland. The last polish amphibious exercise was conducted in 1986. The only part of this 1954 exercise that wasn´r a staple of later plans, was the invasions of southern Sweden (but that that task might just have been fobbed off on some other unit, most likely a soviet one whose plan complexes we have no knowledge of today)

So in conclusion the other side thought the amphibious invasion of the danish isles just as "doable" as the rest of the invasion plans. Polish marines wading ashore on Zealand would have been just as much a part and parcel of WW3 as T80s rolling through Fuld Gap.