Scenario Testing

Mr. Guberman · 08-04-2009, 08:44 AM,

Before the subject gets completely lost (as is so often wont at these boards...)...
What is the purpose of H2H?

...and, by God, Foul... in all fairness...you have not stepped up to that...
Please..."What is the purpose of H2H?"

...obviously, I don't care...but there seems to be a cadre who do, so in all fairness to them...

cheers
town drunk...

**Mr Grumpy** · 08-04-2009, 08:52 AM,

Mr. Guberman Wrote:Before the subject gets completely lost (as is so often wont at these boards...)...

I agree and was not going to drag this thread out any longer. ;)

Mr. Guberman Wrote:What is the purpose of H2H?

...and, by God, Foul... in all fairness...you have not stepped up to that...
Please..."What is the purpose of H2H?"

...obviously, I don't care...but there seems to be a cadre who do, so in all fairness to them...
But as you ask.......
cheers
town drunk...

But as you asked........

The Purpose of H2H Scenario Testing Area is to play test and critique scenarios. The Blitz has many ladders and this section has been updated to provide scenario designer support across the wide spectrum of games readily available at The Blitz. A completed, tested and balanced scenario ultimately helps the community by adding to the list of available, challenging and entertaining scenarios.

H2H Scenario Testing Area is for scenario designers and play testers to come together. Scenario designers can post both their all-new scenarios here and players at large can download the scenarios in beta form and assist the designers in refining them gaining ladder points in the process. Voyeurs can watch the projects progress from rough drafts to refined end-products. All finished scenarios will be listed in the scenario archives so they can be easily reported and can also be downloaded from the relevant title section of the H2H pages under Approved Scenarios.
Only those worthy achieve the H2H Approved title.

That's me for now. :)

Mr. Guberman · 08-04-2009, 09:29 AM,

Foul,

agreed...but what is so dislexic about the CS H2H section?

could it be the game itself?...I don't know...on the one hand it is super simple to make a scenario...Is that what the original H2H was meant to curb? On the other hand, it is incredibly difficult to make a scenario...

the question remains beggared...what is the point of H2H (in CS...I suppose).

...on the other...who gives a sh&t?....and I do not say that lightly...

cheers
Curt

Herr Straße Laufer · 08-04-2009, 09:46 AM,

Gosh. Just when I was about to upload a couple for testing. :rolleyes:
Is it worth it? I spent a year thinking about it not being worth it and then experienced mwests testing. I thought it was.:chin:
Now I'm torn if I should just upload to the main scenario lists. Who then will tell me they are crap? :smoke:

The only "elite" designer I can say was elite is D. Bevard. His stuff might not pass the H2H testing. Most are well balanced when stated as H2H in the description. Others surprised me. :kill:

I think the H2H area needs some work on both ends. I see both sides. Maybe a purge of the smaller scenarios, or the larger ones that the designer is not supporting, similar to the way boot camp was purged of players who did not report a game after three months? :conf: Whip

RR

Mr. Guberman · 08-04-2009, 10:13 AM,

Ed,

Let me be the first to tell you that your scens are crap. Just so that that is out of the way...haven't played any of them...but look forward to doing so.

What is the purpose of H2H? Man I've had people wanting to fight themselves over what was a good scen or not...just threw them out there...and everybody was surprised...by the very few people who played any of them...but the ones they liked...threw everybody for a loop...yeeet...

cheers...

Keep on puttin 'em out there Ed...I did...and see where it has gotten me...(can't find the smily face that punches beer mugs together...)
Sincerely Ed,
Curt

Mr. Guberman · 08-04-2009, 10:31 AM,

Ed,
...who was Doug Bevard?...it appears that one is starting with 0 (zero) here, when it is not warranted...but what do I know?...

...you're a clever cat...and I do respect your oppinion...

cheers
Curt

K K Rossokolski · 08-04-2009, 01:08 PM,

MrRoadrunner Wrote:Gosh. Just when I was about to upload a couple for testing. :rolleyes:
Is it worth it? I spent a year thinking about it not being worth it and then experienced mwests testing. I thought it was.:chin:
Now I'm torn if I should just upload to the main scenario lists. Who then will tell me they are crap? :smoke:

The only "elite" designer I can say was elite is D. Bevard. His stuff might not pass the H2H testing. Most are well balanced when stated as H2H in the description. Others surprised me. :kill:

I think the H2H area needs some work on both ends. I see both sides. Maybe a purge of the smaller scenarios, or the larger ones that the designer is not supporting, similar to the way boot camp was purged of players who did not report a game after three months? :conf:

RR

Hello Ed, trust you are well
Why "purge" some of the smaller scens, many of which are delightful. And what do you mean by "larger ones the designer is not supporting". Does an old but good large scenario need regular maintenance? A history update? Perhaps the Sherman tanks of 1943 need replacing by Abrams?
Who will make the choice of what to cull? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?. Is it important to save a few mB?
I normally bat on your side, mate, but not this time...the cull idea stinks.

Herr Straße Laufer · 08-04-2009, 07:33 PM,

Guys, I was writing about the H2H area.
Why let scenarios languish, if the designer does not support them?

If the designer wants to bypass the H2H area and upload them to the scenario dBASE they have that option? :chin:

Curt, if you scroll through the EFII and WF scenario list, when selecting a game to play from the version 1.04 (or Gold or original Talonsoft), you will see Doug Bevard's name. He wrote really cool and unique scenarios that often were balanced, when listed as H2H. Not too many clunkers there. :)

Rod, I've had better days. :smoke: But, I'm not complaining.
I was only writing about scenarios that sit in the H2H section. If they are small, untested, and unsupported why not just purge them "from the H2H testing" area, after a set amount of time?
I would give the larger ones more time because they take more time. Unless the designer is not involved.
Seems that Foul has a list of those that are being played and by whom?

The largest problem with the H2H area is in communication. If scenarios are "dumped" there and expected to be tested but, they do not draw "flies", why should they take up slots?
My idea on purging was from the thought that scenarios were uploaded to "H2H" without being supported and/or promoted by the designer.
Early on I thought the H2H area was autonimous and that the head of H2H would be there to shephard or purge the designs. After my experience with mwest and testing I see how it works. I think designer involvement and communication is key.

On a side note, I feel the scenario dBASE needs some cleaning up. There are more "clunkers" that will never get played or are so unbalanced (and some silly) that they should be removed. If not removed they should be stored in another area, so that any other player with an interest could modify and update the scenario so that it could be played H2H or versus the computer. And, listed that way?

I'm honestly not being sly here. I just had "the light go on" and now see the benefit of the H2H testing area.

RR

**Mr Grumpy** · 08-05-2009, 04:13 AM,

MrRoadrunner Wrote:I was only writing about scenarios that sit in the H2H section. If they are small, untested, and unsupported why not just purge them "from the H2H testing" area, after a set amount of time?
I would give the larger ones more time because they take more time. Unless the designer is not involved.
Seems that Foul has a list of those that are being played and by whom?

Ed, indeed i do purge 'deadwood' scenarios after maybe six(ish) months and would do this more often if the test page needed space freed up (only happened once at CM), the new H2H will automatically delete scenarios after a set period unless the designers respond to a automated email (just like bootcamp) this will free me from this chore and keep only active designers scenarios listed. :)

MrRoadrunner Wrote:The largest problem with the H2H area is in communication. If scenarios are "dumped" there and expected to be tested but, they do not draw "flies", why should they take up slots?
My idea on purging was from the thought that scenarios were uploaded to "H2H" without being supported and/or promoted by the designer.

I agree 100%, certain designers (on all ladders) are uploading their scenarios to the test area and then expecting them to be tested without any leg work, this is the number 1 headache for myself and the reason a designer is restricted to only 3 scenarios at any one time.

MrRoadrunner Wrote:Early on I thought the H2H area was autonimous and that the head of H2H would be there to shephard or purge the designs. After my experience with mwest and testing I see how it works. I think designer involvement and communication is key.

Indeed after the outstanding success of mwest how could anyone involved doubt the system can work at CS? Mike was active in finding testers and analysing the feedback quickly and using the forum to obtain extra info and ask opinions, he then quickly produced a updated version and tested again, he also liaised with myself when a test had log jammed his progress, the result was two approved scenarios and i believe the testers had a lot of fun and Mike had the satisfaction to see his project completed in good time.

The whole of the H2H is designer driven, they are key, you can improve the H2H area and even offer masses of points to testers, but if the designer is not prepared to put the effort in the whole system just wont work in my experience. ;)

MrRoadrunner Wrote:I'm honestly not being sly here. I just had "the light go on" and now see the benefit of the H2H testing area.
RR

Thank you Ed that is sooo good to hear because i feel like i have been banging my head against a brick wall for some time not feeling like i was making progress, i really hope the CS area can get involved with the H2H area as it can be a heck of a lot of fun and very rewarding :)

Steel God · 08-05-2009, 04:45 AM,

A few random thoughts about H2H:

I play tested for HPS Simulations for several years and the #1 thing I always begged for was to do more testing that involved 2 live players, and not so much one player against the AI. For time (and hence budget) reasons they allowed us only a little of the "head to head" testing. Since my primary area of interest is in PBEM, and I never play the AI, I generally found the stock scenarios (developed as they were predominately for AI play) to be imbalanced towards one side or the other. So it seemed a natural fit to use the H2H area to take existing stock scenarios, and/or original designs, and put them through a formalized process that would hopefully produce scenarios with a better balance for PBEM use.

Is it necessary to use the system? No, never have said that, and I do believe that some veteran designers would probably get little benefit from using it; primarily because once you are experienced enough you get a feel for design and what will produce balance and what won't. But for people who haven't designed scores of scenarios, there is a way for them to have them go through a review by a group of peers who will hopefully help them produce a more balanced scenario. Can they just design it and stick it in the database? Of course, but I wonder how many potentially good scenarios got lost in the data base because something that could be fixed easily made a scenario unbalanced and after the first 2 plays with crappy ratings everyone else passed it by. If it had gone through H2H and those fixes had been applied before release, it could just as easily be the next ladder favorite scenario.

That's why I encourage Darran to continue to push H2H.

Will it work for CS? It was originally developed for CS so I am sure it can. Will it work for every ladder? I know of issues with certain ladders that effect H2H and prevent better usage. Why do I think the CS Community has issues with H2H that others don't (at the moment anyway)? CS is a venerable game. People have a lot of stick time with it. That experience breeds a certain level of competency in ones abilities, and some folks may feel they don't need the H2H system to produce balance in a PBEM scenario. I am in no position to judge whether any such folks would be right or wrong, nor am I concerned if the CS Community wants to ignore H2H. If anyone wants to use it, it's there for them, and we provide it as a service to designers if they wish to take advantage of it. If not, that's fine too. We would ask though that if someone does want to use the system, maybe help them out and test their game for them.

Good Gaming.