The armed half-track

[Herr Straße Laufer]

I knew I would pay the price for being a smarta$$... :)

Actually, I misinterpreted the Remagen story I accidentally bumped into... I thought what happened was that the Germans intentionally blew up a truck of their own to block the strategically very important bridge at the time of the US attack.

Having re-read, it seems that what happened was that the Germans just happened to hit a (US?) truck that exploded and blocked the bridge. My bad.

Hey Crossroads,

No worries mate!
No payment for joining in and providing a look at things from a different perspective.
It would have been nice to see how long it took to remove the block? A lucky engineer could do it in six minutes. :smoke:



RR

[Skryabin]

Good Lord................do people still think that the 6 minute time scale was ever really accurate in any version of CS?

I am sorry to squeeze in, I am very new to the game, but I am very surprised by this time scale discussion. Maybe I am missing the point, but isn't game simulates warfare? The vehicles are designed to move such and such far and this is "how far" is based on what ground they can cover during 6 minute period. If it is not 6 minutes then how many? And how far they can go then?

I am just learning the game and curious if I am on a right track?

:conf:

[K K Rossokolski]

Ed, your doctrinaire insistence on 6 minutes per turn fails the basic marching test. West Front dog-eared manual p 80 states the physical scale as 1km to 4 hexes. Now, a fast infantry, such as the Bersaglieri or the Abyssinian Imp Guard cover 4 hexes along a flat paved road in one turn, ie 10 km/hour...6 miles per hour if you wish.
I'm no ground pounder, but that seems to me too fast for marching with the stuff grunts carry. Nowadays, I can barely DRIVE that fast
Which means that whatever a turn duration is, it is more than 6 mins.

I believe a turn can represent whatever time you wish it to. It really has no meaning in CS

[Skryabin]

a turn can represent whatever time you wish it to. It really has no meaning in CS

This deserve to shine in the Manual! (instead of that 6 minutes shirt) :)

[Hawk Kriegsman]

Ed, your doctrinaire insistence on 6 minutes per turn fails the basic marching test. West Front dog-eared manual p 80 states the physical scale as 1km to 4 hexes.

WTF!!! It is not Ed's insistence.
It is the insistence of:
Jim Rose, Bob McNamara, Joseph Hummel, Charles Kibler, Brian McGinn, John Tiller, Jamie Nash, John Underwood, Glenn Saunders, etc.., etc.., etc.. A veritable whose, who in the wargaming world.

I don't see Huib, VonEarlman, or KKR in the :censored: credits. Please send me your wargaming titles and will objectively compare them with the illustrious designers of CS.

I do see Chris Wilson aka Periander as the only current CS player in the credits! Thanks Chris!

From the EF II Manual Page 2 (Introduction):

A turn represents approximately 6 minutes of real time.

From the EF II Manual Page 222 (East Front II FAQ).
2) What is the game scale?

A. The game scale is six minutes per turn and 250 meters per hex.

From the WF Manual Page 2 (Introduction):

Each Game Turn is equivalent to about six minutes of real time.

From the WF Manual Page 249 (West Front FAQ).
11) What is the game scale?

A. The game scale is six minutes per turn and 250 meters per hex.

From the RS Manual Page 17 (Game Scale and Stacking).
The game turn is 6 minutes per Game Turn and 250 meter per hex (exceptions: Game Turns during a Night scenario represents a longer period of time due to units normally moving slower at night, and the scale of some of the smaller islands has been "stretched" slightly for playability's sake"

I am sure if I read the manuals cover to cover I could give you more references.

Which means that whatever a turn duration is, it is more than 6 mins.

Not per the designers of the game. They clearly state what the time of a turn is. 6 minutes.

I believe a turn can represent whatever time you wish it to. It really has no meaning in CS

To you yes. To the designers of the game no. 6 minutes is the length of a turn.

Thanx!

Hawk

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Ed, your doctrinaire insistence on 6 minutes per turn fails the basic marching test. West Front dog-eared manual p 80 states the physical scale as 1km to 4 hexes. Now, a fast infantry, such as the Bersaglieri or the Abyssinian Imp Guard cover 4 hexes along a flat paved road in one turn, ie 10 km/hour...6 miles per hour if you wish.
I'm no ground pounder, but that seems to me too fast for marching with the stuff grunts carry. Nowadays, I can barely DRIVE that fast
Which means that whatever a turn duration is, it is more than 6 mins.

I believe a turn can represent whatever time you wish it to. It really has no meaning in CS

Rod,

:( I am a mere mortal. I only read the manuals and have seen the discussions over the course of time since the game was introduced.
I know what the game was based on, in PanzerBlitz and PanzerLeader. I also know that the time is an abstract based on the "I go U go" nature of the game, along with it's age in the halls of hallowed gaming.
Time and scale has always been a factor since board wargaming and miniature wargaming days.
Scale in time is a determining factor in scale of hexes and unit type. On that there is no discussion.
I am sorry that you feel that I am doing the devil's work. I am not. :(
I am simply stating what I know of the game and game design since the early days of Avalon Hill and SPI.
The transfer of scale from board to computer gaming, using hexes, is not rocket science? It is an abstract that is more mathematically calculated? Hell, the world is not modeled in hexagons but we use them for gaming? :chin:
Don't try to sell me on the idea of scale is in the mind of the scenarios designer. Unless your are willing to have all the units and their movements adjusted to the scale that the designer has in mind?
Then we will no longer be playing CS?

Sorry if you feel the way you do. I must drive faster than you? ;)

Regards,

Ed

[Herr Straße Laufer]

WTF!!! It is not Ed's insistence.
It is the insistence of:
Jim Rose, Bob McNamara, Joseph Hummel, Charles Kibler, Brian McGinn, John Tiller, Jamie Nash, John Underwood, Glenn Saunders, etc.., etc.., etc.. A veritable whose, who in the wargaming world.

I don't see Huib, VonEarlman, or KKR in the :censored: credits. Please send me your wargaming titles and will objectively compare them with the illustrious designers of CS.

Actually Huib is in the credits? ;)
BETA Brigade
Gary, Bill, Randy, Huib, Bob,
Chris, Mike, CJ, James

He's part of the team? Though, he often posts like he is the team!

Rod wrote:

I believe a turn can represent whatever time you wish it to. It really has no meaning in CS

To you yes. To the designers of the game no. 6 minutes is the length of a turn.

Thanks Erik. I appreciate all that you wrote. :bow:

It's the morphing of the game that often puzzles me. Too many of the new guys (and some of the old hats) are often willing to sell out the original idea to bring about a "new" idea to "enhance the game".

Heck, they can change the friggin manual if they do not like what it says? It won't change the fact that hexes are set up according the scale that a turn represents. It is just basic game design from the earliest days of game design?
We've had enough "updates" and changes? I'd have thought an attack against the basic game scale, by the Matrix team, would be easy enough to do for these guys?

Or, maybe we need to have less abstract and more "remember the game scale" when scenarios are designed? :chin:

I thought I could take the 'piling on" alone. But, it is nice to have you watch my back. I 'ain't' perfect, but, I know what I know from what I read. I see you can read the same things that I do. And, you know your history. :smoke:

Now, maybe my scenario designs, in scale, will not be seen as bad as Herr Huib intimated from his post? :rolleyes:

Hawk, thanks again!

Ed

[Hawk Kriegsman]

[quote=Hawk Kriegsman]
Actually Huib is in the credits? ;)
BETA Brigade
Gary, Bill, Randy, Huib, Bob,
Chris, Mike, CJ, James

He's part of the team? Though, he often posts like he is the team!

Not of the orignal game he isn't. That was the point I was making.

Thanks Erik. I appreciate all that you wrote. :bow:

I call them like I see them.

I thought I could take the 'piling on" alone. But, it is nice to have you watch my back. I 'ain't' perfect, but, I know what I know from what I read. I see you can read the same things that I do. And, you know your history. :smoke:

You know me I always love a good scrap!

Hawk, thanks again!

No problem!

Thanx!

Hawk

[K K Rossokolski]

"I don't see Huib, VonEarlman, or KKR in the credits. Please send me your wargaming titles and will objectively compare them with the illustrious designers of CS."

perhaps we should not dare to express an opinion!!!. maybe hawk kriegsman could express an opinion on marching speed as well as casting aspersions on the qualifications, even the right, of others to comment.

[Hawk Kriegsman]

perhaps we should not dare to express an opinion!!!. maybe hawk kriegsman could express an opinion on marching speed as well as casting aspersions on the qualifications, even the right, of others to comment.

Nowhere did I state you could not express an opinion. But when it is one that is based in fantasy expect to be challanged on it.

You made this statement:

I believe a turn can represent whatever time you wish it to. It really has no meaning in CS

And I pointed out to you that the designers of the game deem otherwise as I clearly pointed out in the various manuals.

You can blather on at me all you like I don't give a :censored:.

You can make a turn what ever you like I don't give a :censored:.

The designers of the game state quite clearly it is 6 minutes.

You have nothing to refute that my friend.

Thanx!

Hawk