New S42 Campaign!

[Dog Soldier]

Right Rick,

In the S42 scenario 1120_21 and 1120_21a Hell for Leather, the Soviet southern force has miserable supply with the VST OR. So that could be the basis for the CG? I will have to check. Sometimes CG and scenarios do not have the same values for the same area.

Dog Soldier

[Marquo]

I been thinking about the reasons for the defensive handicaps - and I was suddenly struck by a thunderbolt: it is way too easy and quick to inflict a huge handicap secondary to isolation.

Think about it: entire battalions, even divisions and corps can be isolated and pay a huge price even if only "isolated" for a single move (ie several hours). If I place a zone of zocs at distance around a corps, even entrenched and not moving or firing, it will become isolated and risk low fuel, etc. after only 2 or 3 hours?

Maybe the degradation of supplies, etc. should take much longer; maybe the HQs should be abstract but functional supply sources.

Just a few thoughts.

Marquo :stir:

[von Nev]

Great suggestions folks and great discussion.

I tell you what, before anybody starts playing my scenario, I am going to tweak the Russian artillery setup down a bit as well as try a few Russian supply levels. I think these will largely address what I think we collectively believe are areas to look at.

Now, if I do this, can we think through what unintended consequences it may have? Are we handicapping the Russian too much? Will the Germans be back at being able to go on offense again?

Marty

[Marquo]

Marty,

Do not forget that the Axis lost; the Soviets won...hands down, no question.

The other thing PzC does not emulate well if at all is the element of time. VPs should not only be geographically awarded - but also when the victory location is taken. Consider: award 5000 vps if the Tractor Factory is taken on turns 1 - 50, 2500 if taken 51 - 100, etc. The markers could be withdrawn and replaced as reinforcements - I once experimented with this yet could not do it - the problem is creating marker units to capture that have no mobility, no defense or attack value yet are "worth" so many vps.

Good luck - without artillery the Soviets are doomed.

[von Nev]

Good luck - without artillery the Soviets are doomed.

This is what worries me . . .

I fully understand what you are saying about VP's and timing although I never thought of marker units. I may noodle around with that a bit too.

[c00per]

Maybe you guys are thinking about this German pocket all wrong. Why not put huge victory locations outside of the German pocket. That way the russian is more interested in holding territory and keeping his pocket formed with layers. Historically speaking the first month of the pocket was the Russian consolidating there gains and reinforcing there inner and outer rings around the Sixth Army. Best way to have a german pocket is giving the russian no reason to collapse it.

[James Ward]

Marty,

Do not forget that the Axis lost; the Soviets won...hands down, no question.

The other thing PzC does not emulate well if at all is the element of time. VPs should not only be geographically awarded - but also when the victory location is taken. Consider: award 5000 vps if the Tractor Factory is taken on turns 1 - 50, 2500 if taken 51 - 100, etc. The markers could be withdrawn and replaced as reinforcements - I once experimented with this yet could not do it - the problem is creating marker units to capture that have no mobility, no defense or attack value yet are "worth" so many vps.

Good luck - without artillery the Soviets are doomed.

Variable victory points for hexes would be a cool thing to have. It's really difficult to reward a good delaying defense in PzC.
I'd also like to see exit hexes require a supply line to give VP's but that's probably very difficult to do.

[Ricky B]

Maybe you guys are thinking about this German pocket all wrong. Why not put huge victory locations outside of the German pocket. That way the russian is more interested in holding territory and keeping his pocket formed with layers. Historically speaking the first month of the pocket was the Russian consolidating there gains and reinforcing there inner and outer rings around the Sixth Army. Best way to have a german pocket is giving the russian no reason to collapse it.

If as Marquo suggested there were victory points per turn for objectives, or something similar, then this would help I am sure. However, it only matters who holds the objectives at the end of the game, and the common tactic in these games is rather than drive for the objectives, you wipe the defender out first and then they can't hold the objectives anyway. So having huge objectives in other areas won't matter, I believe, a Soviet attacker will still concentrate on crushing the pocket, then send everything after the objectives. Now your idea would work if the scenario length was cut significantly, making it a choice of crush the pocket or take the objectives, but there is a scenario like that already and it doesn't have the issue of a quickly collapsing pocket so much.

Rick

[Volcano Man]

I don't see it permanently dropping Ed, but I can see the supply taking a big drop as the initial stocks are run down and the spearheads drive forward, then as time goes by the supplies start moving more smoothly again - so maybe a 90 level for the first 2 days, drop to 70 on the third day, 50 on the fifth day, then stay there for a couple of weeks, then back up to 60, 70, 80.

Just throwing out numbers, would need to look at the scenario in more detail - but I assume 50 would leave the spearheads at a very low level. One thing I recall is that the push from south of Stalingrad was in a terrible supply position even at the beginning because there were no good supply lines in the area.

Rick

Perhaps a better solution is to simply not have the Russian supply increase at all. The way it is currently, it just gets significantly higher as the campaign proceeds, which is probably contrary to what needs to occur. Having it remain the same throughout and with the use of VST means that their supplies will begin to suffer as their lines are stretched, and the Germans will have better supplies in the area of the Winter Storm counter attack simply because they are closer to their own SSs, and the Russians are very far away from their own. This seems logical to me.

[Volcano Man]

Good luck - without artillery the Soviets are doomed.

Yes I agree. The soviet artillery, especially in the _Alt, *is* (historically so) their "punch" and their strength. It is probably the one thing they have going for them. However, it is justifiable to at least lower their artillery setup % slightly to represent their mobility problems in setting up that are inherent to this campaign.

I know that the standard arty setup % for Russian artillery in the _Alt is 60%, so maybe drop it to 40% (at the most) would help out. You certainly don't want to make it too low or they will never setup. I think that a slight adjustment to the Russian arty setup like this, with a few bunkers here and there, and the removal of the gradual Russian supply variation increase, then you will probably get a good result. As I said, you have to be careful not to go "too far".

But I don't know, on second thought, I am not so sure the Russian artillery setup needs to change. 60%, the standard, is already quite low enough and 90% of them are horse artillery which moves very slowly in the snow / across streams all over the map. I just think the artillery setup might be a knee jerk reaction to something that probably only needs very few tweaks.