Allied units in F'40

Panzer VI · (This post was last modified: 01-05-2010, 03:18 PM by Panzer VI.)

Allied units in France '40 literally get "raped" no matter what you do.I remember I was able beat up a German Infantry Battalion once, catching it travel mode and causing a disruption.Even then, every time I went in my Belgians would just get murdered by this unit.I was losing 40+ men a turn just from this one unit.Insane.:rolleyes:

In my current game, entire Divisions are breaking in like 5 turns. Morale stinks, and when you see 1 German infantry battalion taking on 2000+ Belgians and Breaking them all in couple turns, something is up. Bunkers are the only that even *slows* down the gauntlet, while artillery is the only thing that really packs a punch against German Panzers.:(

I don't know much about this conflict, but I see why they lost in a matter of weeks.Their units just stink.I'm not saying that those men didn't fight bravely, but these guys are no match for Morale B German Infantry units.:whis:

Any tactics I can use to slow them down?:chin:

Volcano Man · (This post was last modified: 01-06-2010, 04:58 AM by Volcano Man.)

I would say that the German's biggest enemy is not your Allied units, but rather their enemy is time itself. The only real tactic you can use is to try to keep them busy in order to slow their advance. Hopefully by doing this and forcing them to rush it, they will be greatly fatigued by the latter stages of the campaign, which should hopefully allow you to do some damage with your tanks and better units that arrive and with the Brits.

I would say, avoid shooting at the Germans altogether with your infantry, let the Germans do the shooting -- don't make it easier on them by getting yourself disrupted or broken on your turn. When you let them shoot at you, it costs MPs, which may prevent assaults on that turn, which costs time. This is a lot different than you disrupting yourself on your turn so that all they have to do is move up and assault on theirs. You can however shoot all you want with your tanks versus their tanks -- it should be encouraged, and of course to use artillery as much as possible (obviously).

Either way you slice it though, playing the allies in France '40 takes an iron will and a strong stomach. :o It is quite similar to playing the Italians in Compass '40; not impossible to very very tricky and sometimes depressing.

I hope that helps...

Peter777 · 01-08-2010, 02:21 PM,

I agree the allies are pretty useless in F40. The C grade french and the Brits OK troops but the rest are junk.

I am playing the Allies in the full campaign it is just hard work. We are past turn 75 and the Allies are still holding a line of types. Most of the Beligian army has been destroyed.

As the Allies it is just a big defence game, delay, defend and retreat, very soul destroying.

It would be more fun (unhistroical) for the Allies if they had more C grade divisions those D and E grade divisions are useless. This plus better supplies and no withdrawals.

Tactics - Artillery is the best thing the Allies have, especially 25pdrs, the C Grade french and brits can defend well enough and occassionally counter attack. When ever possible delay, retreat, play for time and only fight when needed. I think the key is save as many units as possible from the very start, there are no Statingrads or pockets that well hold out in F40, even with a supply source. I had plans of concentrated armoured counter acts like the Germans can in Russia but these are wasteful as the french just do not have tough enough tanks and supporting infantry.

I really doubt the allies can win and draw F40, maybe a minor defeat but I doubt that as well.

Peter777

FLG · 01-08-2010, 05:20 PM,

I disagree, I think the allies can win F40. As Volcano said, it is time which is the enemy. By playing a good defensive game you can stop the Germans achieving the VP's they need for a win. You will take huge losses what ever happens but that doesn't mean you can't win. Review the victory conditions and try to understand what the Germans need in terms of objectives and VP's from losses in order to achieve victory

Dog Soldier · 01-08-2010, 05:29 PM,

As the Allies in F40 a Freench military term comes to mind....sang froid!
Your mission, should you chose to perform it, is to throw the invasion off balance and buy time. Japanese saying... Do not be an oak. Bend like the willow and snap back now and then.

Belgian play
The Belgians had a strategy of trying to hold Liege, Namur, and Antwerp. I think there was a name for the fortess region around Antwerp. Anyway, trying to do more than that with them against the German juggernaut is foolish. The best the Belgians north of the Ardennes can do is slow the German advance (by letting them shoot holes in us!) or get out of the way and try to stay alive diverting German divisions to hunt you down.

In the Ardennes, the Belgian troops are quite good. They can make an Axis player really hate trees if the main German push is there. :hissy: A little French help can go a long way to causing Manstein's nightmare in the Ardennes happen.

French play
As mentioned before, use your artillery to break up the point of attack. Massive amounts of artillery. Think WW1. Keep some of your good C and B morale infantry divisions and the Cavalry Corps (ready and hidden) to pounce on what the artillery breaks up. Skate to where the puck will be and not to where it is at.
Some times you have to give the Germans a break through to trap a division or half of one. Even if you do not eliminate German units, such a beating will take out German units for a few days and buy time, your real ally.
BTW, there are a lot of C morale German infantry divisions. Not all a B morale. Even PzGr units in the panzer divisions are B morale. They can be lowered to C and even D morale.

I once collected half a German infantry division (four battalions worth) that crossed a river and then were counter attacked. True the other half of the German division escaped back across the river, only because they were broken units covered by the four battlaions of soon to be POWs!
Took out two panzer divisions in another game for a full day in a similar way. It can be done.

The "junk" as someone called them are divisions that are just cannon fodder. Use them to wear down the Germans as they plow through these guys. VM was right, let the Germans do all the shooting. It takes more time. Use the time they buy wisely to set up tougher to crack defensive lines further back.
Save a unit with the HQ and guns for later use. The artillery of any division needs a spotter. And that artillery adds up over time.

British play
The British can be used in two ways.
1. Dig in tight along the Dyle and fortify the line with extra mines, many TRENCHES, and well sighted artillery.
VARIANT A --- Chose a River the Germans have to cross which has plenty of good cover on your side and fortify it! When those little rubber boats come across with German infantry, make them pay. Other wise, bust up the engineers to slow down bridge building if the Germans do not try for a bridgehead of ON FOOT troops to protect said engineers. The BEF can go toe to toe with German infantry trying to cross a river. Here is one rare case where you will have the upper hand.

2. In the south, the BEF can whoop the heck out of the German infantry if all the panzers are in the north. Think about it....

Did anyone in this thread mention Allied artillery is the trump card? British artillery is outstanding. Again, mass it along the expected axis of attack and do not dither it away trying to hit every German unit on the head once per turn. Pick on a regiment or division and give it a good working over with the artillery for two or three turns. Then as the Germans use the rest of the day trying to bring up new troops and pull out the shattered battalions move to your next positions and reorganize to do it again.
The British Matildas, while very few units, make great plugs in the dyke when needed. The Germans have a hard time moving those rocks out of the road. Cover them with artillery to shoot the inevitable 88mm ATGs they attract.

Generally
Do not bother with the "No Halt" versions of the F40 CG unless you are wanting a good beating in 50 turns or less. Hitler losing his nerve is an Allied players "ace in the hole card". Be sure to plan ahead for those FIXES so your troops are no where to be seen (NO LOS) with the FIXED panzer corps. That buys you a day to reorganize, entrench, and bury your dead.
If you want to enjoy playing the Allies, you are going to have to be able to plan to take some big gambles and do things the German player would not dream of. You already know if you just line up your troops in three lines, fall back constantly, and fill the holes with reinforcements, the German mulching machine will eat you alive. You have to throw out the book and try stuff that will make the German player pause like a duck hit on the head every so often. You can not take him out of the fight, but you can distract, misdirect, and confuse him to do what?....oh ya...BUY TIME! :soap:

What are the three keys to a good PzC defense?
Terrain, Terrain,Terrain.
It is a long way to the coast. Make the Germans come get you. There are obvious paths that offer the least resistance in terms of defensible terrain. If he goes there, delay with rear guards and punish his troops in the open with artillery.
If he sends the main push through the more congested parts of Western Belgium and Northern France, be glad and make the German player get frustrated to take gambles with units in "T" mode.

Finally
Give the mod CG RickyB and Tortue Agile posted here at the blitz a try. The opening turn should have not movement, only a selection of the S/O's for each side. While you will be able to figure out what the other side chose by the end of May 10th or 11th, it does make for some interesting unpredictability those first ten - twenty turns or so.

Consider it a morale victory if you get to Dunkirk and the clock runs out. I know, the VP locations and Allied versus German casualty ratio mean you will not "win" on the VP chart. But it does not have to be a chore to get to the end of the game.

Dog Soldier

Elxaime · (This post was last modified: 01-08-2010, 05:41 PM by Elxaime.)

The best approach mentally is to realize that F40, like some other of the games out there, is modeling a historical result as opposed to simply laying the forces out there and letting the chips fall where they may. IMHO, the French army of 1940, per se, was nowhere near as bad at fighting as it is modeled in this game. Their problem was faulty Allied air doctrine which hindered close air support and an outmoded command system which prevented quick changes of plans. The former is easy to model, but the latter not so much. France 1940 was a disaster based on poor plans and leadership, like Cannae, the Little Bighorn and Balaclava - how as a game designer do you model that? You cannot force the player, with his benefit of hindsight, to put his head into the noose like his historical counterparts did. Players also hate "idiot" rules that keep them from moving their units. The compromise reached in HPS F40 was to give most of the Allied units the fighting capacity of wet tofu. I think they ended up doing OK - you have a decent approximation of the campaign of 1940.

And to be fair, there are pitfalls of another kind to the "just lay it out there and let them play" approach. The HPS Kursk 43' title stock campaign is a good example. The German forces are well-equipped and high morale, as they should be. But the victory conditions and setup give them a completely free hand as to where and how to attack. Unbound by the dictates of Hitler and the German General Staff, a cunning German player of Kursk 43' sidesteps the main Soviet defenses, uses his knowledge of where and for how long Soviet units are fixed, and wins easily by outflanking the Soviets and chopping them into mincemeat. The Soviets are set up and the victory conditions assume the Germans will attempt an advance along the historic axis, but there is nothing to constrain them to do so and many reasons for them to do elsewise. As a result, the stock Kursk 43 campaign is a cautionary tale of what happens when a game designer gives the players too much freedom.

Peter777 · 01-08-2010, 09:04 PM,

I think the F40 scenario is not bad.

You feel the pain and limitations of the Allies. It is a real challenge, with seberal alternate strategies you can play to see if you can change history.

Think with a bit of limited tuning and VP adjustments it could be a better game.

I would like to see a Allied Victory but I think a minor defeat or a moral victory is the best the Allies can hope for.

One good and bad part of F40 is that it take so long to play through a grand strategy plan I doubt if anyone would get a chance to adjust their plan a 2nd time around.

Peter777

Dog Soldier · 01-09-2010, 01:20 AM,

Elxaime,

Good analysis. The command and control (communications with the front) were the problem in France 1940 historically. A central command structure with runners on motorcycles used to relay orders was so WW1. The front was not so static. Messengers could not always find commanders in the field or found them too late (to make the orders useless) due to the fast changing, and fluid battle in May 1940. Even when the Allied command realized the error of their pre-battle assumptions, they could not communicate with the field commanders effectively.

"You are too fast, much too fast for us. That's all there is too it!"

Remark of a French general captured at St Valery in conversation with Rommel

The player on a PC has no such problem clicking on his units.
One design method to illustrate this would be to delay turn orders and randomly have the game engine ignore others. Have the AI command formations where the high command orders get lost.

Possible in a WEGO game system, but not in a turn based system. So the compromise was to make the Allied units less able to carry out a mobile defense. Anyway, even in a WEGO game engine, such delays and cancellation of orders would drive most gamers nuts thinking the game was buggy.

Dog Soldier