Mud Movement penalties seem low

[Gordons HQ]

I think VM's comments are correct about fun and it certainly isn't fun playing the Russians most of the time in these games. It is in fact a very challenging thing to command them and I would say from my experiences usually far more so than playing as an Axis commander.
But it adds insult to injury when you see the Axis getting advantages they didn't get in reality, like the movement rates in the mud issues being discussed here.
I know it's a fine line reality and playability but with computers this should be achievable.
There are comments in this thread that the mud didn't really effect the Axis advance as much as we are like to believe. This is blantantly untrue, there are so many books and films on the subject you have to be blinkered to belive that.
I don't pretend to have the answer to this problem but there really should be something to stop German armoured units running round amok whilst everything else is floundering in the MUD

Cheers Gordon

[James Ward]

I think VM's comments are correct about fun and it certainly isn't fun playing the Russians most of the time in these games.

After commanding the Russian in the Smolensk campaign you should demand a game as the Russians in the Minsk campaign. That'll balance the fun out :)

[Bacillus98]

So far in the thread you have several opinions. That's fine, as I wanted to encourage open dialogue. I wanted to respond to several folks in the thread.

To Nick: I agree that is not as easy as simply taking a division movement distance in km and dividing it by a designated time amount. I was only doing this to get an average idea on the limits imposed on units because of mud.


To Midge: You're a funny guy :) You should try the ATV Mud Mania race. Lot of women there too...



To Ricky: I am in agreement about syncing the movement rate of infantry and motorized/tracked units. Your suggestion seems sound. And yes, a scenario shouldn't be all mud if it can help it. I count maybe 2 scenarios in M41 that are strictly mud. And in both the Germans still move much too rapidly and are able to surround the Soviets with relative ease.

To VM: How far would a mechanized/motorized unit move in mud in your alts if you applied it to the M41 game?

To Glenn: I understand there is a fine balance between realism, playability, and fun. Have you recently played the "Tula Little, Tula Late scenario"? It is overwhelmingly pro Axis. Just look at the Ladder record and count the Axis wins vs. the Allies. One of the biggest reason why the Germans dominate is because of unrealistic mobility they have in the mud which is used to surround Russian units and destroy them systematically. Historically the Germans were mainly confined to the Tula highway road since it had the best conditions for rapid movement.

[Glenn Saunders]

To Glenn: I understand there is a fine balance between realism, playability, and fun. Have you recently played the "Tula Little, Tula Late scenario"?

No I have not - and once the game is made I don't go looking over PBEM results looking to make tweaks.

I will review any situation that is brought to my attentions and supported by BTL files that I can view. And I have a long history of doing that.

To this end I was reminded the other day by Dog Soldier, that I have made some revisions to this Scn based on his input in the last month or so - these changes will be in the next update. Whether these changes completely addresses what your saying I don't know.

Anyway - I will make any changes to scns that players recommend if they seem like good ideas and are supported by BTL files so I can get my head around the issue. But if they are just posts for everyone to comment on than there is a good chance they will be treated as interesting discussion points among players and guys who do mods to the original game.

Glenn

[Volcano Man]

To VM: How far would a mechanized/motorized unit move in mud in your alts if you applied it to the M41 game?

Well, as you may or may not know, I have been working on the M41_Alt for a couple of years off and on hah, and well, from the work in progress at the moment, the Mud changes I stated with the _Alt's movement values make it to where a motorized and motorcycle infantry (German types) and armored cars can only move two hexes per turn in the mud, tracked vehicle can move about four hexes per turn in the mud. Foot units are unchanged (they also move about two hexes per turn in the mud). I can't really ask for better results than that, it does relegate these units to roads during Mud conditions.

In any case, I will refrain from answering any more about that since this part of the discussion is better left for the forum at vmods.com -- but I do hope to finish up M41_Alt soon enough --- the conversions are always a heckuva lot of work, and there is always something more important to do.

[Marquo]

Another work around this which I have used to time compress very long campaigns: increase the number of hours per turn - this way units may move move hexes/turn in the mud, but each day has fewer turns...

Marquo