Questions Regarding Firing and Assault Resolution

[jckerr4]

I have read the manual and still can not grasp the firing and assault resolution.
What do I need to know?
I would like to be able to have a good enough understanding to decide if firing or assault is feasable.
I have attempted to work this out on paper and keep getting stuck
Is there some other document that details the mechanics?
Is there a rule of thumb that someone could recommend?
What should I be considering when attacking?
Number of troops, Morale, Fatigue, Attack Value, Defense, Assault, Terrain, Modifiers... What else?

Here is the basic example I was trying to work out
This from B44#00
I moved the 2 units into a clear area and was trying to predict the low and high number of of casualties
I should be able to determine the random number by reverse engineering the casualties.
I there a way to "see" the random number for each event?

I./GR 295 (18,5)
Axis
642 Men
Movement 24
Morale C
Fatigue 0
Hard 6/1
Soft 8/1
Assault 10
Defense 16

81st Eng Bn (17,6)
Allied
650 Men
Movement 21
Morale D
Fatigue 0
Hard 6/0
Soft 10/1
Assault 10
Defense 16

[alaric99x]

I see you list a number of factors and considerations, but you don't mention disruption. For assaults the single most important factor is that all units in the defending hex be disrupted or broken. I will almost never assault a hex that contains any units in good order. In those cases it's better to fire until the defender is disrupted, and then assault if any friendly units are still capable of doing so.

[Glenn Saunders]

To me your question outlines why the decision to attack or when to fire and when to assault is something you get a sense for with experience and there is no perfect formula.

I liked to use up all my shots and still leave MPs for an Assault - but if you do they, your fire may trigger OPT fire which may in turn disrupt and call off your assault. Sometimes, if I have a unit pinned and unable to retreat, I split up my assaults into two smaller assaults because each one captures prisoners and the some of two is I thnk better than one large assault. But I can't tell you mathmatically when this is the way to go and when it is not.

Justplay the game - get a feel and go with your gut feel. I suspect you will enjoy the game more than.

> I should be able to determine the random number by reverse engineering the casualties.
> I there a way to "see" the random number for each event?

Your kidding - right?

Best you can do is turn OFF the ON MAP results and that will show you the attack and Def Values - but no you can't see the random number that generated the result.

Glenn

[Mr Grumpy]

I add to the others comments i am afraid assault is a bit of a "black art" with no certain way of knowing what result you will get, experience will give you a gut feeling for when it is time to assault a hex, there is no magic formula to use.

Disrupting your opponents units is very important, not only does this half their defending fire, more importantly it half's their assault value when the result calculation is made, but the numbers of defenders and any hexside terrain features also play a part.

Quality also plays a major role, with the lowest quality rating of the attacking units and the highest quality rating of the defending units taken into account, so don't assault with 3x A quality units and a single C quality unit as your "assaulting quality" will be C.

If you don't want to suffer excessive casualties/fatigue a minimum odds of 2-1 is desirable.

On occasions you can assault without disrupting your opponents units first, this is normally done if you have a massive advantage in numbers say 1000 attackers vs 150 defenders, you may not take the hex but you will pile fatigue on the defending unit, also if you suspect the quality of the defenders is low i.e. E quality an assault might work.

But nothing is certain, i have assaulted a stack of disrupted units got a bad dice roll and not taken the hex although i felt all the assault check box's had been ticked. :(

[Dog Soldier]

All war is a gamble to be sure.

You are way over analyzing the game / simulation. Glenn's advice is sound. Commander's learn in the field. There are some basic principles outlined in the other posts in this thread. Learning when to "stick to the book" and when to "throw out the book" is a matter of experience in playing the game.

Thank goodness the troops are only digital.

Dog Soldier

[alaric99x]

Thank goodness the troops are only digital.

Dog Soldier

You're sure right about that. When I think about what I put my troops through in some of my games, surely one of them would have shot me a long time ago.

[jckerr4]

Thanks for all the advice.
It will certainly help.
It can't hurt, cause I loose just about every game I play
I still think I need to understand assault, attack, and defense values just a little better
Do attack values correlate directly to defense values?
In other words if there are 2 equal units on equal terrain with no modifiers, and the attacking unit has a attack value of 10 and the defending unit has a defense value of 10. Do I have 50% of scoring casualties?

Or are they just relative to my own troops.
Where I should be thinking "this unit has a defense of 20, and that unit has a defense of 10, If i need to secure a position I should use the 20"

I understand the comments regarding over analysis, and have no problem "going with my gut", but why then did they bother to put the Combat results section in the manual?
Am I the only dope who read it 5 times, thinking maybe, I need to understand this to get better?

Maybe there should be a disclaimer

Warning! This section should only be read by Game designers, Astro Physicists and Non terrestrial beings. Read at your own risk. May cause foaming at the mouth, sporadic head scratching and spontaneous incontrollable outbursts of inappropriate language. If you read this and have an erection lasting 4 or more hours, you probably should seek a career in the computer sciences field

Here is the section:
A common combat results calculation is used for both fire and assault results. The combat results calculation is based on four parameters: a combat value, a modifier, a Low Combat Value (LCV) and a High Combat Value (HCV). For fire combat, the combat value is the adjusted fire value of the firing units. For assault combat, the combat value is the adjusted strength of the opposing side. The given modifiers are applied to the given combat value to arrive at the effective combat value. The Low Combat Value and High Combat Value are the extreme possible casualties resulting from a base-line combat value of 1000. The effective combat value is used to scale these accordingly resulting in low and high possible casualties. Finally a random value is selected between the low and high casualty values to arrive at the final combat result.

For example, given a combat value of 40, a modifier of 25%, a Low Combat Value of 50 and a High Combat Value of 250, the effective combat value would be 50 (= 40 + 25%). This would be 5% of the base-line combat value of 1000. Thus the low casualty value would be 2.5 (= 50 * 5%) and the high casualty value would be 12.5 (= 250 * 5%). The resulting casualty value would be randomly generated between 2.5 and 12.5 for this combat. Finally, based on the fractional part of the casualty value, it is randomly rounded up or down. For example, if the casualty value was calculated to be 3.7, then 30% of the time this is rounded down to 3 and 70% of the time is rounded up to 4.

[Glenn Saunders]

jckerr4

The section of the Docs you referred to was written by a PHD in math because he thought some people might like to read it and like having the info. I've been working with John Tiller since 2000 and I have to confess the section doesn't really tell me much.

Just set up the game - turn the ON MAP result off if you want to see the numbers and try various shots and assaults and see what works and doesn't work. As someone advised - try to assault enemy that are disrupted as it halves their defense.

This may help you a little - but the game doesn't calculate Odds and roll a die like the old board games did. Come to think of it, that might be a reason why John wrote that section of the docs - to illustrate that that combat is not something resolved with a six sided dice.

Glenn

[jckerr4]

Thanks Glenn,
I hope I can apply your advice with success
I will now release from my mind, all mathematical computations and use my inner consciousness to guide me
Or as Obi-Wan said:
"Use the force Luke"

Just thinking... if Obi-Wan never left home, wouldn't he just be Obi-Lan
<crickets chirping>
<crickets chirping>

Anyway....

You Guys have created some really great games
Thanks Again

[Mr Grumpy]

Maybe there should be a disclaimer

Warning! This section should only be read by Game designers, Astro Physicists and Non terrestrial beings. Read at your own risk. May cause foaming at the mouth, sporadic head scratching and spontaneous incontrollable outbursts of inappropriate language. If you read this and have an erection lasting 4 or more hours, you probably should seek a career in the computer sciences field

Yup, when i first read that section i nearly passed out, when i had recovered some and knowing deep down i would never understand it i decided to just play the game and pick it up as i went along, sure i have launched some terrible assaults but over time you just get a feel for what works and what does not, i know that does not help you now but we have all had to go through the same learning curve!

Glenn advice is sound, switch off the FOW and set up lots of different assault situations, play them over and over and soon you will see a pattern of results emerge, it sounds like you may have jumped into PBEM games a little too early before you had a reasonable idea of how the mechanics of assault work.

Good luck, keep practising and remember we have all been there........