The Vietnam War myth

[low_bidder]

Next thread, "The myth of the Stab in the Back Theory"

Sometimes getting out of a war is not so much a crime as getting into it in the first place. I am curious: what does this revisionist Vietnam history teach us about Afghanistan and Iraq?

Nothing. What would a broken fuel pump on your F150 teach you about the fuel injection on your Lexus?

History is history. Revisionism is politics. Sort of moving the goalposts after the game is over.
The facts are that for whatever reason, the USA engaged in the use of military power in Vietnam. For whatever reason, the USA withdrew that military power before the job was done. Into that power vacuum the Communists poured serious armored forces. Covered with conventional air power. Anything beyond that is conjecture and/or propaganda.
It can be argued that Vietnam was a victory, since the purpose stated BEFORE the insertion of US troops was to prevent the spread of Communism from Asia proper to the various Islands of the Pacific Rim (AKA Domino Theory). Since Communism stopped spreading in Asia post Vietnam the claim for strategic victory is supportable. Since the last picture from Vietnam is that of terrified Vietnamese hanging from the skids on a chopper as it flees, the claim of defeat is also valid.
That is because the US Army allowed themselves to be trapped in a nation building situation instead of the rear guard/holding action originally planned.
Mission creep, which brings us back to your Is Afghanistan = Vietnam question.
My opinion is 'not yet'. The Original mission to the 'stan was killing terrs. Creating a nation where none has NEVER existed is classic Mission Creep into Nation Building.
I don't fear another Vietnam, but another Bataan. Maximum logistics support by air bridge is about 100,00 troops. Light troops. Heavy cuts that number down to under 60,000. That is because there is only 1 airport that can handle the big birds. That airport is surrounded on 3 sides by hills/mountains that offer excellent cover and concealment for ManPADS.
If Pakistan cuts the supply lines, then the US Army becomes a large group of hostages. Like what happened on Bataan.

[FM WarB]

Here is an interesting article about the fall of South Vietnam in 1975.
http://www.usamhi.army.mil/USAWC/Paramet...ibbeno.htm

I have seen the figure of 600 for NVA tanks in the campaign. Would anyone have more specific numbers for NVA and ARVN armored forces in 1975?
Not counting 1445 PZI, the Germans had 1223 PzII, 202 35T, 78 38T, 98 PzIII and 211 PzIV (Jenz, Panzer Truppen, vol 1) for a total of 1612. So it seems the Germans had more tanks for the invasion of Poland than the NVA did in 1975.
Just doing a little fact checking, and note the "house of cards" reference in the recommended article.

[Ricky B]

We gave the South Vietnamese approx 450-500 tanks - M41s and M48s, in the early 70s. Not sure how many were still combat capable by 1975 - a siginficant portion of them, probably no more than 400.

No idea on the NVA tank numbers, outside of some estimates being that they had 700 total, but I think that is in their army, some not in the campaign, so 600 sounds reasonable.

Rick

[bwv]

Don't know why it should be controversial that the US could have possibly won a military victory had it kept up the pressure for a few more years. But this of course ignores the political dimension. A sizeable portion of the US population had become disillusioned with the war, and perhaps more sensibly that anyone in power, saw that ultimately fighting in Vietnam was not in our direct national interest and the sacrifice of lives was not worth it. True, the NV regime was a brutal communist dictatorship and Ho was not the "George Washington" of SE Asia. But that is insufficient grounds for fighting a decade long war that cost 60,000 US lives and 3 million Vietnamese. This is not a right / left issue. The real conservative position in the US has always been noninterventionism

[Bear]

In Relative historical reference to another "artificial border line" was the one created in the American Civil War: The Mason Dixon over which 600,000 died in it's defense versus removal aka as
"A House Divided".
Not as radical as twentieth century "cold war" cry of Communist Domino Theory of a political idea morphing into an international threat.
The War between the States was a Revolutionary War against the Federal Government and there was a Civil War current but it was a war between the same people. Not language, religion, alien or foreign alliances to take over and conquer, although the Czar of Russia did send flotillas to New York and San Francisco as a signal to Britain to Not Get Involved. The Brits did run trade through the blockade of South during the war.
A war of reckoning, of settling the rules and laws of one people, indivisible etc.
The North Vietnamese, Stalinists then Maoists then Independents sought to unify their own kind their own people. We westerners think and judge in our jingoist and arrogant view of the world i.e. Pax Britannica but the truth of facts and history can a will be twisted and propagandized by the neo - fascists within the U.S. and Europe. Fascism relies on perpetual fear and "threats" to support the endless preparation for wars and perpetuating them at every opportunity. This feeds the bank accounts of the Military - Industrial - Congressional Combine.

See Iraq? And does anyone think we'll see any international bankers, hedgers or traders goto prison or be shot? If I should disappear from the radar fellas, you'll know why, and I'm not a fraking Banker :smoke:

[low_bidder]

"But that is insufficient grounds for fighting a decade long war that cost 60,000 US lives and 3 million Vietnamese. This is not a right / left issue."

That is an opinion, not a fact. And which side of the opinion you are on is one of the things that defines left/right.

IMHO, The Domino theory was proven in Greece in the '46-'48 period when the USA help the Greek nationalists fight off the Communist takeover of Greece. If we hadn't it could be argued that Italy and Spain were the next Domino's.
You need to read your Marx. Socialism advances by what ever means available to it, under what ever title works.
That is why one day they are progressives, the next Liberals, then after that, in no particular order; Socialists, Marxists, Maoists, Communists, What ever label works at that moment.
I call them all 4th worlders, since they obviously live on a different world then the rest of us and 3rd worlder was already taken.
By Labeling them 4th worlders I prevent them from escaping responsibility for their actions by changing their name. Sinking the goalposts in concrete is a good way to make them harder to move.

Anyway, the Domino Theory is better then any theory the 4th World has produced. Imperial America? Explain why the USA has returned conquered land to it's inhabitants more often then not. Explain why the USA hasn't taken Canada or Mexico, why the PR is allowed to live in limbo as a none sovereign state yet not the 51st state although that might change soon. Congress added a do or die amendment to the Health care bill that requires PR to either become a state or a sovereign nation. Not sure it's constitutional for Congress to do that, it being a treaty of sorts.
It is a valid argument that Vietnam kept Australia, the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia and several former English colonies from going communist.
Or do you think it a co-ink-see-dink that when the west resorted to force of arms to halt 4th world expansion, it was stopped?

[Bear]

"But that is insufficient grounds for fighting a decade long war that cost 60,000 US lives and 3 million Vietnamese. This is not a right / left issue."

That is an opinion, not a fact. And which side of the opinion you are on is one of the things that defines left/right.

IMHO, The Domino theory was proven in Greece in the '46-'48 period when the USA help the Greek nationalists fight off the Communist takeover of Greece. If we hadn't it could be argued that Italy and Spain were the next Domino's.
You need to read your Marx. Socialism advances by what ever means available to it, under what ever title works.
That is why one day they are progressives, the next Liberals, then after that, in no particular order; Socialists, Marxists, Maoists, Communists, What ever label works at that moment.
I call them all 4th worlders, since they obviously live on a different world then the rest of us and 3rd worlder was already taken.
By Labeling them 4th worlders I prevent them from escaping responsibility for their actions by changing their name. Sinking the goalposts in concrete is a good way to make them harder to move.

Anyway, the Domino Theory is better then any theory the 4th World has produced. Imperial America? Explain why the USA has returned conquered land to it's inhabitants more often then not. Explain why the USA hasn't taken Canada or Mexico, why the PR is allowed to live in limbo as a none sovereign state yet not the 51st state although that might change soon. Congress added a do or die amendment to the Health care bill that requires PR to either become a state or a sovereign nation. Not sure it's constitutional for Congress to do that, it being a treaty of sorts.
It is a valid argument that Vietnam kept Australia, the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia and several former English colonies from going communist.
Or do you think it a co-ink-see-dink that when the west resorted to force of arms to halt 4th world expansion, it was stopped?

The "Domino Theory" as it was used as a reason for the USA to goto war in Southeast Asia is what I am disputing. The history of Vietnam proves this up to today. Easy in hind sight. The reason to goto war there is the Myth or lie used to make it happen. And I believe the war on Iraq is another lie perpetrated by the "Combine".
Communism is used as a catch all phrase, the West, you see I say the West, defense of Greece was to counter Stalinism which is not Communism. Semantics for some, but if we're talking truth to history we should try to be clear with one another.
Maoism is another abomination of Communism. Stalin and Mao, in their quest for power by expansionism became dictatorships under the guise of "Communism". Y'know, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Matter of fact my security clearance was held up until my/family "affiliation" with a White/Czarist Russian organization was cleared up. No collaboration with the German/Axis...no fn way.
This is the week of The Ninth of May...9 MAY 1945. A very solemn day for us all to remember and give thanks to the dead and survivors. Amen.

[bwv]

Communism is used as a catch all phrase, the West, you see I say the West, defense of Greece was to counter Stalinism which is not Communism. Semantics for some, but if we're talking truth to history we should try to be clear with one another.
Maoism is another abomination of Communism. Stalin and Mao, in their quest for power by expansionism became dictatorships under the guise of "Communism".

As opposed to all those other communist governments that weren't dictatorships?

Stalin did nothing that did not have a precedent with Lenin. He after all created the terror apparatus that enabled Stalin to consolidate power.

[low_bidder]

"defense of Greece was to counter Stalinism which is not Communism. Semantics for some, but if we're talking truth to history we should try to be clear with one another. "

In Your opinion. In my opinion, there is no major difference between them. If it walks like a duck, swims like a duke quacks like a duck.....
I call them 4th worlders just to prevent them from doing what you are trying to do, which is hide behind a label.
Truth is a slippery subject, which is why 4th worlders worship it. Conservatives understand that truth is facts with spin. Truth depends on perspective. Facts are facts. They remain unchanged no matter what the perspective POV) is.

Let me be real clear. Any difference between Statism, Maoism, Marxism, Communism, Socialism, Liberalism, Progressivism, Stalinism, et. al. exist only in the minds of those that want there to be a difference. You are in the position of a man claiming a dog with 10,002 fleas is different then a dog with 9,990 fleas.
I say it's a dog and it has fleas. GET IT OUT OF THE HOUSE!

[Bear]

"defense of Greece was to counter Stalinism which is not Communism. Semantics for some, but if we're talking truth to history we should try to be clear with one another. "

In Your opinion. In my opinion, there is no major difference between them. If it walks like a duck, swims like a duke quacks like a duck.....
I call them 4th worlders just to prevent them from doing what you are trying to do, which is hide behind a label.
Truth is a slippery subject, which is why 4th worlders worship it. Conservatives understand that truth is facts with spin. Truth depends on perspective. Facts are facts. They remain unchanged no matter what the perspective POV) is.

Let me be real clear. Any difference between Statism, Maoism, Marxism, Communism, Socialism, Liberalism, Progressivism, Stalinism, et. al. exist only in the minds of those that want there to be a difference. You are in the position of a man claiming a dog with 10,002 fleas is different then a dog with 9,990 fleas.
I say it's a dog and it has fleas. GET IT OUT OF THE HOUSE!

I am a US citizen, and we do not have a Democracy, it is truly a Republic of States. These are important details, it is not wise to generalize all political theories as "them" versus whatever ideology you subscribe to. I am trying to be objective but it is impossible when discussing with someone that cannot let go of subjective judgments. An important fact to remember is that whenever an "ism" reaches it's zenith of success including religious beliefs, or that vague point of realization we humans will evolve or topple that "ism". If one of those options is not sought out then that "ism" or way of doing things in the past will cause that nation/society to self destruct, implode and render those true believers/fundamentalists if you would, into the crapper of history. i.e. Greek religion became Greek Mythology and is now entertainment material...but this digresses from the issue...?
The war in Vietnam Myth to me is that it was a just and moral war. I never subscribed to that, even when I swore in to active duty during the war. My obligation as a citizen trumps my personal beliefs. Any US citizen out there of able mind and body not serving in the current war against muslim fundamentalism is without conscience or conviction for the safety and well being of family, friends and all Americans and western civilization. Forget all the bullshit and semantics about ideology and "isms" and the subversive chicken hawks on "fake news" and the fat profiteer "Limpbag"...fear has become a big pay day for the subversives. Talk is not cheap when war is on, they give hope and encouragement to our enemies who see us divided...and the WAR goes on...