The Battle of Charleroi 14 and French 18e Corps

[FM WarB]

Sewell Tyng, The Campaign of the Marne, pp. 102-110 places the french 18e Corps on the left of 3e Corps in the area of Thuin on the 22nd.

This website has them arriving there on the 21st: http://www.chtimiste.com/

The french 18e Corps is not in the France 1014 Charleroi scenario and is too far south in the early campaign scenario to intervene on the 22nd.

Ed, what sources do you have that indicate this Corps was not present on the 22nd?

[Volcano Man]

Well, in regards to the 18e CA, I intimately remember digging up info on it from many sources because it is one of those issues that has conflicting information from each source where it is mentioned. As far as which sources I used, they are all listed in the notes. I sure hope people are reading the notes, I can't keep digging stuff up and revisiting it, I have to move on to the next title after all.

But speaking of Tyng's book, I am curious where exactly it specifically says that the 18e CA was on the left on the 21st and 22nd (or when it arrived exactly for that matter)? For the 18e CA's position, I took French maps and had them arrive at their spot in the line at the moment in which they show up in the front line on those maps. Look at the map on page 103 of Tyng's book where it shows the 18e CA on the left flank, and look at the fine print text in the bottom left of that map (it says the map is the situation on the *night of the 23rd*). Then turn over a few pages to page 109 at the bottom: it says (paraphrased), by night on the 22nd the 5e Armee fell back (from the Sambre) to defensive positions, only around Thuin did they maintain a foothold as the 18e CA arrived to prolong the position. This seems to imply that the 18e CA arrived on the night of the 22nd in force which was not so (see below).

In regards to that website you posted, I am all too familiar with it as it was helpful with the French OOB in finding some obscure regiments. However, in regards to his pages on specific battles, we have to keep in mind that we don't know what the heck sources the guy is using as he does not say AFAICT. Still, he has some good French maps but unfortunately he doesn't have a map that shows the 18e CA's position on them in the Charleroi section. But lets just take the website as the gospel truth for a moment. He states that:

"Further south, the 18th Army Corps, arrived Aug. 19 in the region Avesnes had advanced to (21?) Thuin. But he had only a vanguard: the 35th Division was still staggered Beaumont Hestrud. He could not take action on the 22nd. In addition, the reserve divisions were only leaving Vervins."

Just evaluating that text there, it says that the 18e CA "vanguard", which we have absolutely no idea what the vanguard was, it could have been its cavalry regiment, or that and the corps' artillery, or all of that plus half or part of the 36e DI - we just don't know. All that we do know is that the 35e DI was not in action on the 22nd as it was spread out between Beaumont and Hestrud and that (reading into it) the corps arrived in force just when the "reserve divisions" (4e GDR) was leaving Vervins. So this contradict's Tyng's paragraph that implied that the 18e CA arrived in force on the 22nd, which the latter is certainly not true given that the 18e CA does not appear on any maps on that day, only on the afternoon / evening of the 23rd does it appear on French battle maps (which, BTW, is how it currently plays out in the Charleroi and early campaign scenario).

But lets say we take a combination of the two sources, "arrived on the night of the 22nd" from the text of Tyng, disregarding his map that shows the corps in position on the night of the 23rd, "arriving" could be anything from it being in the general sector still moving to actually exiting march/column formation on that spot so we can't use that. What it most likely means it that the corps started trickling in on the night of the 22nd, piece by piece. In the website's text, it states that a vanguard of the corps was arriving on the 22nd, which lets say this is what Tyng was referring to "on the night of the 22nd". But then the website says that at least 1/2 of the corps (35e DI) and maybe more could not come into action on that day and that the corps was not fully into action until the "reserve divisions" were just leaving the Sambre (again, 4e GDR). Now we specifically know from records that the 4e GDR did not leave the area to move southwest until the night of the 23rd / morning of the 24th so this would mean that, optimistically, the 18e CA came into action on the night of the 23rd, just before the 4e GDR left. This coincides with Tyng's map, showing the situation on the night of the 23rd.

Maybe you can kind of get the idea now of the detective work that was involved in all of this stuff, and none of this is even taking into account the other sources listed in the notes. So what we know is this: the 18e CA arrived when the 4e GDR was leaving, and it arrived in full force at that point by the night of the 23rd to close the gap. So the situation as it currently stands in the scenario is that the corps will arrive in full force on that exact spot on the ground in the afternoon of the 23rd, rather than have parts of the corps trickle in on the 22nd, parts which we have no idea the size and number exactly, especially since the 4e GDR is still there covering the area at this point (so there isn't a huge open flank after all). This produces a historical result of the accounts that state that the 18e CA arrived just in the nick of time to take over for the 4e GDR and save the situation on the left flank.

Having said that, I can see now that I probably have them enter the Charleroi map in the wrong place as they moved (as best I can tell) along the road Hirson-la Capelle-Avesnes then to Beaumont so I should probably have them arrive on the left side of the map and not down at the bottom, and I might do that, but other than that I don't think there is enough evidence, currently at least, in my mind that justifies changing it especially giving the rather vague, contradicting and incomplete data available (which is why I used known points of 4e GDR withdrawal to coincide with 18e full arrival to "wargame" it properly). If we knew the exact composition of the "vanguard" then I may add a little chrome and have them arriving on the evening of the 22nd, but it doesn't matter anyway since they did not enter any action (they only sat and waited for the rest of the corps to come up) so doing this would allow users to rush them into the line piece by piece as they will not wait. Clear as mud I presume...

[Ricky B]

Wow Ed, thanks for the immensely detailed reply, a lot of information on what you did on so many parts of your game, for such a simple question.

I will add that during testing Ed did a huge amount of this discussing to us also, based on his numerous sources, in trying to balance out conflicting and vague details on specific units, and continued after he mastered the game. He has told us he is ready to continue tinkering if needed - while also mentioning he doesn't want to look at anything new as he feels he can be fairly sure he will find something that conflicts with what he already had. But he has mentioned getting some new books already, anyway, perfectionist that he is.

Rick

[Mr Grumpy]

I think there is no doubt that having produced this title which took nearly six years i believe, Ed is as knowledgeable about the events of 1914 as just about anyone out there.

When you are a perfectionist as Ed is, it must be a nightmare when sources conflict! :hissy:

[Volcano Man]

Ok, so what you are both saying is that I type too much!? ;)

[Dog Soldier]

"Do not use a cannon to kill a mosquito."
-- Confucius

Dog Soldier

[Volcano Man]

Hmm, well, for all my blathering above, I think that I see areas where I can make an improvement on the 18e CA's disposition. I was never really totally satisfied with how they are currently represented because of all the incomplete data and contradicting sources (as mentioned above). Once FM WarB brought the topic up again, I remembered intimately what I went through looking for data on that corps -- a seriously traumatic investigative experience at the time.

Anyway, I kept scratching around in my sources and found that I *might* have made a mistake translating some French sources and mixed up a date. Anyway, I will have a further review of it but it looks like, at the moment at least, that it probably makes sense that on the morning of the 22nd this corps should be spread out from Thuin to Beaumont to Solre-le-Chateau. So, maybe something good might come from it in the first update IF in fact I think I made a translation error. :) (One source I have are some French accounts of Sordet's CdC since it states when they were relieved along the Sambre and by whom - that will definitely reveal the answer).

As a side note, I definitely won't devote this much time to reviewing every question made in the forum in the future, but this particular topic happened to be, like I said, something I went round and round with on several occasions.

[jonnymacbrown]

"As a side note, I definitely won't devote this much time to reviewing every question made in the forum in the future, but this particular topic happened to be, like I said, something I went round and round with on several occasions."

I wish every game designer made himself available as you do. Thanks for the work. jonny

[Volcano Man]

Well, I think Glenn is certainly available for the PzC series (after all, he certainly didn't get 1,000 posts for nothing). In regards to F14, so far some good topics of discussion had been brought up which happened to coincide with things I had had a concern about, but lesser issues would of course not get the same response because of the need to move forward.

Having said that though, I do have a problem: I personally LOVE to play F14 myself. ;) So, if I think something is incorrect then I will indeed try to address it. I can't say that about every "problem" both large and small, but at least for the major ones I will try, and I think that the is the same for all the designers that I know.

[jonnymacbrown]

"Well, I think Glenn is certainly available for the PzC series (after all, he certainly didn't get 1,000 posts for nothing)."

Yes OPS is really good that way. I was thinking of other games in the long history of wargaming. jonny;)