The Banzai

[Scud]

I've just started a Rising Sun game, at which I consider myself an absolute rookie and have been reading up on some old threads concerning the banzai. Since my opponent is the allies, I've left it up to him as to whether we'll use it or not.

Questions: Does not using it slant the (stock) scenario? Does agreeing to use it a fixed amount of times slant the scenario less/more? Historically it was desperation time for the Japanese, but I'm reading opinions in older threads that it's not such a desperate tactic at all the way it's implemented in CS; is that about right?

If using it, any recommendations on timing? Later in the scenario to keep the opponent guessing or is it just dependent on situation? Is it something you prepare and plan for, or like in real life, put together as a last ditch tactic?

Any other thoughts or suggestions concerning it's use?

Dave

[K K Rossokolski]

I think, Dave, that you're over-analyzing the issue. Why not play it and see.
I know that some people don't like it, but I personally feel it was an honest attempt to do small scale tactics in a system that really can't go below 250 metres.
I've spoken to a lot of old blokes who fought in the Pacific and many of them spoke of this type of attack with a shudder. The bottom line is that the banzai charge is optional.

[Mr. Guberman]

Scud, KKR...

The Banzai attack. Terrifying into the leadup as the troops gathered and the officers blathered their political horsecrap. At the line of departure, Banzai attacks were murdered.

In China, where the legend began, Japanese forces "assaulted" the hell out of the school boy armies of Chiang Kai-Shek and Chiang Hseuh-Liang (Mao's cats laid out). The "banzai" attacks of the "pacific war" were murder. Nothing less. I believe the documentation describes it well enough.

The Banzai attack, in CS...is rot. It never occurred the way it is portrayed in this simulation. I go out of my way to leave Japanese leaders out so that it cannot be attempted (unless risking the leader of the entire force, as I have been talked into including some).

This discussion has gone on long enough. If the facts cannot speak for themselves...then I do not know what else to say...except, possibly...

"...enemy troops firing at Japanese units making a Banzai charge have their kill effects doubled". Possibly, it should be instituted as a mandatory effect upon the Japanese commander, when he is surely hosed (cats "involuntarily" banzaing...as that was the true state of affairs). Possibly that might be realistic...but enemy fire will still be doubled as the "Knights of Bushido" hurl themselves upon the enemies fire.

Not a single "Banzai attack" was any more than that. Pure and simple.

The new ability of some Japanese units to force march faster in jungle and the morale of 8...suffices to make the real "banzai" effect felt. Thanks to Jason...and all of the mod men for making that happening.

Just my oppinion.

Cheers
Curt

[jomni]

I don't use it that much because I fear the unnecessary deaths of precious troops but is it really tantamount to cheating?

[Herr Straße Laufer]

The Banzai attack. Terrifying into the leadup as the troops gathered and the officers blathered their political horsecrap. At the line of departure, Banzai attacks were murdered.

<snip>

The Banzai attack, in CS...is rot. It never occurred the way it is portrayed in this simulation. I go out of my way to leave Japanese leaders out so that it cannot be attempted (unless risking the leader of the entire force, as I have been talked into including some).

<snip>

The new ability of some Japanese units to force march faster in jungle and the morale of 8...suffices to make the real "banzai" effect felt. Thanks to Jason...and all of the mod men for making that happening.

Curt you hit the nail on the head! :bow:
I'd like to see it removed in the version 1.05 update.



HSL

---

I don't use it that much because I fear the unnecessary deaths of precious troops but is it really tantamount to cheating?

Cheating?
It's part of the game as it was designed.

It's not cheating. It's just unrealistic. :smoke:



HSL

[Kool Kat]

Historically it was desperation time for the Japanese, but I'm reading opinions in older threads that it's not such a desperate tactic at all the way it's implemented in CS; is that about right?

If using it, any recommendations on timing? Later in the scenario to keep the opponent guessing or is it just dependent on situation? Is it something you prepare and plan for, or like in real life, put together as a last ditch tactic?

Dave

Dave:

As other players have stated... Banzai as implimented in CS Rising Sun... is both unrealistic and gamey. Currently, Japanese players may utilize Banzai multiple times in a scenario... a Japanese leader only has to make a successful morale check (not too difficult with morale levels of 8-9)... and then all troops under his command... become "super" men... attacking at increased odds... ignoring much of the terrain movement restrictions... and usually able to conduct multiple Banzais in a single turn... that literally tears apart defending troops. And... Banzai can then be repeated.... :eek1: throughout the scenario!

So, again as Ed and others have stated... Banzai needs to be removed in Patch 1.05.

[Remko van den Berg]

Historically it was desperation time for the Japanese, but I'm reading opinions in older threads that it's not such a desperate tactic at all the way it's implemented in CS; is that about right?

If using it, any recommendations on timing? Later in the scenario to keep the opponent guessing or is it just dependent on situation? Is it something you prepare and plan for, or like in real life, put together as a last ditch tactic?

Dave

Dave:

As other players have stated... Banzai as implimented in CS Rising Sun... is both unrealistic and gamey. Currently, Japanese players may utilize Banzai multiple times in a scenario... a Japanese leader only has to make a successful morale check (not too difficult with morale levels of 8-9)... and then all troops under his command... become "super" men... attacking at increased odds... ignoring much of the terrain movement restrictions... and usually able to conduct multiple Banzais in a single turn... that literally tears apart defending troops. And... Banzai can then be repeated.... :eek1: throughout the scenario!

So, again as Ed and others have stated... Banzai needs to be removed in Patch 1.05.

I havén't played RS much (mostly as allies) and never experienced a Banzai attack (as far as i know)
but is the succesrate of a banzai attack with EA on, the same as regular assault with EA off??

regards
Remko

[Mike Abberton]

I havén't played RS much (mostly as allies) and never experienced a Banzai attack (as far as i know)
but is the succesrate of a banzai attack with EA on, the same as regular assault with EA off??

regards
Remko

I haven't used it much with EA on, but I suspect it will make them harder to use against good troops (USMC, USA, UK troops with good morale). Using them against low-morale KNIL, UK, US, Chinese, Irregular troops could be devastating, though, since you can successfully assault low-morale, non-disrupted troops with EA on.

I do agree with the others that the Banzai, as modeled in the CS series now, is not historical. Way too calculated and too effective right now.

To make it more accurate, it would probably have to be a scenario-wide setting (i.e. banzai all the time from the beginning) to simulate that these were usually pre-planned large scale events, not tactical spur-of-the-moment-type decisions.

Then you could remove the free movement bonus (maybe give them "free" double time movement each turn or something), halve (or more) their defense value, halve (or more) their direct fire factors, and increase (+50%?) their assault values. With these rules it should only be vaguely useful in dense terrain or at night, just like in real life. And even then, the troops would die in droves, just like in real life.

It would be interesting if Banzai'ers had a chance to penetrate the enemy line on a successful assault (i.e. skip over a defended hex rather than retreat the troops in that hex) if there was an open hex on the opposite side, but that's probably not worth the effort to code.

Mike

[Kool Kat]

I havén't played RS much (mostly as allies) and never experienced a Banzai attack (as far as i know)
but is the succesrate of a banzai attack with EA on, the same as regular assault with EA off??

I "shudder" :( to be in a RS game with EA on... with the Japanese high morale levels... it would be next to impossible for the Allies to dislodge them from defensive positions! :eek1:

I would assume that with EA on... Banzai attacks would not be as successful.

[K K Rossokolski]

Why get rid of it...it's optional. Nobody is forced to use it.