Sighting Question

Chipmunk · 08-08-2010, 11:37 PM,

Can anyone help me with a little someting I don't quite understand about the sighting rules? I'm often attacked by units I can't see, I don't mean units that haven't been spotted I mean by units that are in hexes my target unit can't even draw a line of sight to (ie if I right click in the direction of the firer he is occupying a dark hex). In a game I played last night I took fire from an initially unspotted enemy tank. After he fired a few shots he somehow appeared on the map even though he was in a dark hex. In my turn his hex was still dark to the unit he had fired on and I couldn't target him with it although he had had no problem targetting me. Both units were tanks of the same size and had the same level of sights. Not sure I understand whats going on here.

Thanks in advance.

Walrus · (This post was last modified: 08-08-2010, 11:51 PM by Walrus.)

Which game platform are you playing?
WW2 / MBT (SPCAMO) or some WAW version?

Sometimes in SPCAMO versions, it is possible to see one way through some obstruction (trees usually) due to the distance from the object, however your explanation makes me wonder what is happening.
Was there any smoke involved?

Was it indirect fire that you were getting hit by? Fire using the 'z' key.
You can tell when it is that as the script at the top left of the screen (I think that's where it is) will show the enemy fire targeting a hex, rather than your vehicle.

Maybe someone else can help...most interesting.
If it's not one of the above, I am stumped.

Good luck Big Grin

Chipmunk · 08-09-2010, 12:40 AM,

Hi Walrus, thanks for your prompt response. I was playing MBT, there was no smoke anywhere when this happened. It was direct fire from a Russian T-62, cant remember if there were any trees between the two. Don't know if it z-key fire as I was playing the AI (does the AI do that?). It's not the first time I've noticed this happening, if it occurs again I will try to take a screenshot.

Walrus · 08-09-2010, 10:45 AM,

Hi Chipmunk

OK, very interesting.
Perhaps save the game if you see it happen (right after it happened) and go to the forums at Shrapnel and put it to the wider SP community and the designers.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisp...f08fb&f=78

There is a chance it could be a bug of some nature, but either way, you may get an answer.

I am sorry but I have never seen that happen as you describe.

Good luck

low_bidder · 08-09-2010, 12:06 PM,

Experience counts. Remember your unit has to pass some random rolls before it 'sees' an enemy unit. The roll (not a good word, but I don't know what else to call it) has modifiers. Experience visibility, terrain, suppression, etc. Moving status counts also. So it's possible and not even unusual for one side to 'see' the other and remain unseen. This happens mostly when the 'seeing' unit is not moving, ready and has good experience. I think the vision rating gets in there somehow.

Run a test. Have a tank sitting in a hide and do the vis hex thingie. Then MG it to get some suppression, Now move it about 1/2 of it's MP's and do the vis thingie again. Note which hexes you can see. Now reload that turn and do it over without the suppression. There should be a slight difference in the hexes that are visible. Now load that turn in your editor and change the vis up about 20 hexes or so. Even more visibility. Back to the editor and change the experience to 100+. Now you can see everything. Even up aunties knickkers, which is more then you wanted to see, I'm sure.
I consider this realistic, since not everybody sees the same. I'm so blind my seeing eye dog uses a cane.

Gila · (This post was last modified: 08-09-2010, 01:52 PM by Gila.)

(08-08-2010, 11:37 PM)Chipmunk Wrote: Can anyone help me with a little someting I don't quite understand about the sighting rules? I'm often attacked by units I can't see, I don't mean units that haven't been spotted I mean by units that are in hexes my target unit can't even draw a line of sight to (ie if I right click in the direction of the firer he is occupying a dark hex). In a game I played last night I took fire from an initially unspotted enemy tank. After he fired a few shots he somehow appeared on the map even though he was in a dark hex. In my turn his hex was still dark to the unit he had fired on and I couldn't target him with it although he had had no problem targetting me. Both units were tanks of the same size and had the same level of sights. Not sure I understand whats going on here.

Thanks in advance.

Elevation and good cover in a hull down position, come to play big time here.
Remember,if you are higher ground (open ground) and the tank firing at you is hull down in a depression,all you will be able to spot is the fact you were fired on the first time.
Maybe that's why you saw it the next turn but was still unable to return fire,all you have is the small harder top of the turret and he's got your larger soft underbelly.
That's why you can ambush a Tiger very effectivly by having a smaller tank(s) or infrny waiting on a lower slope of a hill.

retired from gaming · 08-09-2010, 06:09 PM,

I am not playing an expert here but I cant agree with low_bidder and Gila.
Once the target unit is spotted rules you guys talk about shouldnt play any role.
If you see the target you should be able to fire at it if it is in range. Chance of hitting is obviuosly a different matter.
Interesting thing to know Chipmunk would be if you had any other units which had this T-62 in LOS.
That could mean Gila was right.

Imp · (This post was last modified: 08-09-2010, 08:25 PM by Imp.)

(08-09-2010, 06:09 PM)czerpak Wrote: I am not playing an expert here but I cant agree with low_bidder and Gila.
Once the target unit is spotted rules you guys talk about shouldnt play any role.
If you see the target you should be able to fire at it if it is in range. Chance of hitting is obviuosly a different matter.
Interesting thing to know Chipmunk would be if you had any other units which had this T-62 in LOS.
That could mean Gila was right.

As said these effect spotting as in detection not LOS once found & somebody could obviosly see it all units can see it if have LOS regardless.
Most likely reason is the LOS was marginal due to transparent trees & the likes of seeing over slightly higher terrain like high grass fields or through orchads all of which have a greater effect the lower the visibility.
The enemy tank saw you & fired leaving a small amount of dust in both it & your hex & this caused the LOS to be blocked as it was marginal anyway or other fire on there LOS path achieved the same thing. Now he cant see you either anymore but next turn the dust will have faded & both units will be visible to each other.
Any shot creates invisible dust in target hex some weapons in firers hex to ATGMs are a good example & the lower the visibility the greater effect it has on obscuring vision.
I am sure you have seen this in game several tanks firing at the same infantry unit for example can produce so much dust it becomes visible.

So what probably happened was the act of firing obscured the target both units can no longer see each other because the shell & MGs covered the target in dust & visibility was marginal.