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Bailed Out Crews Question
08-22-2010, 07:17 AM,
#11
RE: Bailed Out Crews Question
Hi,

Crews:
Crews that bail because the tank's on fire are lucky to get out at all, anything they take is a bonus.
My wish list would be that crews who are bailed by the 'owner' should take rifles etc. This particularly applies to motorised scouting units who might wish to park the Land Rover or whatever out of sight, scout about about a bit and return. At present they only have a pistol.
My wish list would also allow other units to drive certain vehicles. The Humvee was specified with automatic transmission so that anyone can drive it. Military vehicles do not have keys! In principle this would allow vehicles to be captured and used by enemy forces.
Tanks, APCs, etc require more driver's ed and would only be capable of being driven by Tank or APC crews.

I also think that fortifications should be capturable and usable by the other side within the game. Ie. they would not spontaneously combust when the last defender is killed. They could be destroyed, by say tank fire but not by a sniper even though the sniper killed all the occupants. An infantry assault might destroy it or it might just kill the occupants.


Area and direct fire:
Area fire was practiced by the British army. In WW1 German units reported that they under machinegun fire when actually under area fire from bolt action rifles.

I think that it would be usefull to be able to target abandoned vehicles and fortifications, buildings and especially bridges with direct fire. In real life these could be targeted.
In the game area fire can be used to suppress enemy forces permitting a friendly unit to get in close.

Resupply:
IRL, APC, Humvees etc carried additional ammo for their infantry. Units could return to the APC etc and get more ammo. This ability would be on my wish list. Coding might be difficult as they should not be allowed to resupply artillery, tanks etc.
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08-22-2010, 11:42 AM,
#12
RE: Bailed Out Crews Question
A good list of wishes Gibraltar.
I am afraid that is what they will remain :(

SPCAMO guys move very slowly on any changes (major ones) as the code is very old and very complex. A small, seemingly simple change can have very strange effects in other parts of the game. The old code is super spagetti!

I remember it took maybe five years of asking for barbed wire to eventually be added to the game.
The op-fire filter took about two years to happen etc.

If you ever played the original SPO games, they have improved it all a very long way over the last 10 years of development...most of those years working for free also.

Back in the day there were only 99 units per team on the map, only three different terrain heights, less OOBs, less nations, less scenarios and maps, no editing ability (or very limited compared to today) etc.

However, if you are brave Big Grin you should go to the SP forums at Shrapnel and post up your list.

You never know, they may be working on some things already, or they may have a good explaination as to whay x change will never happen.

Differentiating between crew who bail out for a scout, and those that are brew up and escape...will never happen. I bet they say that if you want scouts, buy scouts.

I like the idea re. fortifications, however they are treated like vehicles in the game, not buildings, as in they have a crew. Once a crew is dead, the vehicle is brewed up, or becomes abandoned.
Actually, the fact you can get an unsuppressed crew back into their actual vehicle / gun is quite a good feature. I have an AT gun crew in a game at the moment who I am carefully trying to get back into their gun.

Same goes for using other nations vehicle (capyured in the game)...great idea, will never happen. The code would not allow it as far as I can tell.
Each unit has 1 exact crew, no matter which team. I doubt that will ever change. It would be impoxssible to force the code to deal with that without massive issues.

Area fire direct to a building etc...they will argue that you can already do this.
A building icon in a hex is 'representative' of building structures...not the exact building. You can use z-fire to target a hex in LOS (they will say you are shooting at the whole hex rather than at an exact structure), and if you are stationary, and have decent exp and are within range, you can hit the targeted hex more times than not, causing lots of suppression. I am not sure why this is such a concern for players. If I want to target a building with z-fire that is in LOS...I can and do.

I think it is good that z-fire that goes out of LOS is far more 'scattered'.
It might be unrealistic...but it is some sort of representation of shooting at an area I guess.

Now, everyone can proceed to tell me why I am incorrect and that x and y thing all happen in real life :happy:

Anyway...it's just a wish list I guess, and good on you for posting.
However, it will always be a wish unless you get in touch with the developers.
Perhaps I am wrong about what is / is not possible (it would not be the first time :rolleyes:)...but only Andy and Don (SPCAMO) can tell you for sure.

Very good luck!
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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08-22-2010, 12:40 PM,
#13
RE: Bailed Out Crews Question
(08-22-2010, 11:42 AM)Walrus Wrote: Anyway...it's just a wish list I guess, and good on you for posting.
However, it will always be a wish unless you get in touch with the developers.
Perhaps I am wrong about what is / is not possible (it would not be the first time :rolleyes:)...but only Andy and Don (SPCAMO) can tell you for sure.

Very good luck!

And get the same answer as always..NO:whis:
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08-22-2010, 12:52 PM,
#14
RE: Bailed Out Crews Question
It's not always so black and white bro.

I spent quite a while helping test new versions of the game. In that time I saw sensible requests taken seriously...some implemented.
I saw stupid or naive requests summarily dismissed...they are not exactly 'kind' with the way they deal with...in their opinion...wasters of their time.

However...if you don't ask...you will never know.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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08-22-2010, 04:10 PM, (This post was last modified: 08-22-2010, 04:16 PM by Imp.)
#15
RE: Bailed Out Crews Question
Oh tusked one I think your previous answer covered it pretty well & most things listed can be dismissed for the same reason or possibly 3.
The game has been dragged & kicked to where it now is I never played the original but some things we are stuck with & you reminded me of the why.

Crews are part of the unit they come from, always will be.
Bailing out on purpose is enough of a cheat without letting them be an effective fighting unit. Only way to destroy the vehicle then is kill the crew or end your turn in its hex.

Same for fortifications & as most have facings about the only ones its useful to enter are trenches & foxholes which you can.

Terrain cant be targeted units only but also its far to powerful making z fire more accurate. This causes all sorts of problems the main one being splash effecting units it would not on the other side of the building.

Z fire is inherently bad to try & limit this sort of behavior due to eye of god. Works pretty well if you can see the target hex otherwise can go anywhere.
Firing in cluttered terrain like on that squad in the woods stands nearly as much chance of pinning your nearby unit.
However z fire a mg in the desert & you can create a nice beaten area to break up an attack.

Bridges okay falls down a little bit, for me would like them to be level zero or +1 not -3 but boats probably cant enter then.
Targetings fine including aircraft but modern guided stuff is to weak vs, A paveway or big JDAM probably wont take it down.
All other weapons seem about right to me demo charges stand a chance, remember there are no wooden bridges in these games they all easily support 65 tons.
Chances of blowing during a battle as a tactic probably very rare if you were going to take them down its done before it starts or at least wired to go, that will cost you 2 expensive IEDs & theres still a small chance it might not drop.

There is a lot wrong with this game, multi storey buildings anyone but it keeps getting better just looked at the release notes for the last patches.
Most of it is based on what people mention for instance some of Simon (Crosses) suggestions & mine made it through probably other Blitz members to so its worth suggesting them.
As Walrus said though if you dont think it through or it does not fit their idea of whats right dont expect a warm reception.
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08-22-2010, 09:01 PM,
#16
RE: Bailed Out Crews Question
(08-22-2010, 12:52 PM)Walrus Wrote: It's not always so black and white bro.

I spent quite a while helping test new versions of the game. In that time I saw sensible requests taken seriously...some implemented.
I saw stupid or naive requests summarily dismissed...they are not exactly 'kind' with the way they deal with...in their opinion...wasters of their time.

However...if you don't ask...you will never know.

I was speaking of bailed crews having rifles and abilty to direct fire on suspect buildings both of which have been discussed to death on spcamo.

I wouldn't suggest bringing up that dead horse again there.:rolleyes:

On other new suggestions or questions, they are more open,unless it was something already explained in the GG.
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08-23-2010, 01:22 PM,
#17
RE: Bailed Out Crews Question
(08-22-2010, 11:42 AM)Walrus Wrote: Area fire direct to a building etc...they will argue that you can already do this.
A building icon in a hex is 'representative' of building structures...not the exact building. You can use z-fire to target a hex in LOS (they will say you are shooting at the whole hex rather than at an exact structure), and if you are stationary, and have decent exp and are within range, you can hit the targeted hex more times than not, causing lots of suppression. I am not sure why this is such a concern for players. If I want to target a building with z-fire that is in LOS...I can and do.

Walrus, I would never be the one to tell that you were incorrect :whis:

Wait for it...but, I don't think that I have had the same experience with z-fire (though certainly not as vast as yours or most everybody else). But I would like to back up my point with a little experimentation:

I took 2 Panther G's, obviously size 5, and placed them in the open on opposite sides of a large wooden building. I figure that even if it is a smaller building it would still be as big as or probably much larger. Inside the building I sat a German Spaeher scout unit. All these had their ranges set to 0 to avoid OP fire if possible.

250 meters away I sat two M4 Shermans and 1 MG squad (1 50 cal and 2 30 cal). 200 meters away I sat one regular infantry squad (M1's and BAR).

All units set in clear terrain and all clear terrain, elevation 10, between US units, bldg, and GE units. Visibility was 50. It don't get much more vanilla than that.

First up - The Shermans. I ranged them to the Panthers, 250 meters with 61% hit probability. I then z-fired twice at the hex containing the wood building and the scouts. With each z-fire came 1 75mm shot and 3 mg shots. The 75 scored a direct hit twice, the mg's 2 out of 6.

The second Sherman - no direct hits with the 75, 1 direct hit out of 6 with the mg's.

The misses ranged from 50 to 100 meters off, mostly to the left/front or right/front of the target hex.

The Infantry did far worse. They z-fired 4 times (8 total "shots") with only 1 direct hit with a BAR at 200 meters. The misses went all over the place, and interestingly many hit hexes behind the target hex that were out of LOS.

The MG squad figured similarly with 2 z-fires (6 total "shots") with only 1 direct hit by a 30 cal. The misses were predominately in front of the target hex, but one group hit the hex directly behind the house (perhaps the front and rear windows were open, and the rounds went right through).

The result was that the scouts were pinned with a morale of 14.

Now I don't want to do averages, mainly because I hate math, but also because I can't compare an M-1 and a 75mm. But the percentages for scoring a hit on a relatively close building were pretty low. About 50% for the big guns and way, way lower for small arms. I consider myself a pretty good marksman, far from the best though, but I could knock every window out of building at 200 yards with no problem (if you shoot back at me, I'm sure my accuracy would drop a bit - but I bet I still hit the building - I'd clean my pants later).

I went ahead and had the Shermans fire on the Panthers (remember it was a 61% hit probablity) and got a similar result with the 75's. One dead panther and one live one (was missed completely-then killed the Sherman).

So, yes I was able to target "a building" by virtue of being in LOS and it did succeed in a little suppression of the occupants, who remained unseen. But I still have to say that you can not accurately target a specific hex, regardless of what's on it, with z-fire. But, to actually "go after" a structure is very difficult and I believe adds to the over use of z-fire. If z-fire could be more accurately laid onto a particular hex in LOS, you'd get much less of that "spraying effect" which is, IMO, unrealistic in that case.

Now having said that, I do believe that firing into a hex out of LOS should result in that "spraying effect". As you have no real idea of what you are shooting at. The overhead God view contributes to the impression of "his just right there." But to the little pixel guys on the ground it's more of somebody yelling, "just throw some rounds a 100 yards that a way." Not exactly surgical and I think the game does accurately reflect that.

I still have to stick to my guns that z-fire does not target anything. It allows you to put rounds down in a general area, in the case of my experiment over about 7,500 square yards at 200 meters range. That's just not very good to successfully give cover to advancing troops by adequately suppressing unseen foes in the target hex.

I'm not going to suggest any change, as I recognize this for what it is...a very good u-go-i-go wargame. But a game none the less.

Much like the Christmas' of my youth, I often didn't get everything on my wish list, but come Christmas morning I was happy all the same.


GUNSLNGR

"A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards; as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push."

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08-23-2010, 02:58 PM,
#18
RE: Bailed Out Crews Question
As you say its a game & this is one subject they wont shift on, they like it as is.
Look at what happens if you make it more accurate & hence more effective.
You achieved a suppresion of 14 probably about what you would achieve by droping some arty on it for a turn.
Low visibility game when you do z fire quite a bit & its sensible due to muzzle flash why buy arty the z fire will be more effective & is on call.
In the big picture I think they believe it becomes to powerful, you should have thought ahead & used your arty thats what its for.
Sort of drifted off topic here & its something that is not going to change IMO
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