Idea: Bunker facing N/NE/E/SE/S/SW/W/NW

P.Ako · 09-05-2010, 06:47 PM,

Now that it seems that we are talking about new ideas to be implemented into PzC engine, i've come with an idea that i think will make the assault on bunkers and pillboxes more realistic.

The idea is that when you place a bunker with the editor, you decide where is facing the main windows (i don't know their technical name) and the oposite of that facing point is the bunker weak spot, this way if a bunker is facing north, it's weak point would be in the South, if it's on SW the weak point is on it's NE... and so on.

It would make the assaults on bunkers more realistic because that way you can represent the troops isolating the bunker system (giving a huge bonus to troops assaulting from that point) and avoid the actual system where it is easier to not isolate it, and assault until the enemies are displaced than isolate and wait a huge bunch of turns until the enemies are starting to rot inside their forts.

What do you think?

Tide1 · 09-05-2010, 09:03 PM,

Very interesting idea sir. The question I have is would that change impact games like Rzhev and Kursk. I'm currently playing a Rzhev scenario as the Russians and I have said some hard things about the devil and his relations while trying to get into the German defences but I still would not want to ruin the historical aspect of the game.

Tide1

P.Ako · 09-05-2010, 10:00 PM,

(09-05-2010, 09:03 PM)Tide1 Wrote: Very interesting idea sir. The question I have is would that change impact games like Rzhev and Kursk. I'm currently playing a Rzhev scenario as the Russians and I have said some hard things about the devil and his relations while trying to get into the German defences but I still would not want to ruin the historical aspect of the game.

Tide1

For historical aspect you mean the battles where the defender successfully held the line don't you? With this system the chances of taking a bunker by only a frontal assault would be abysmal, and i thought about two thingies:

The facing bonus would apply not only to the facing side but also to it's inmediate sides, IE if a bunker faces south, then the facing bonus would apply also when the troops in the bunker shoot SW and SE, also, like attacker you would not know what side a bunker is facing to (if FOW is activated), you could only make suppositions about where the weak point is.

Dog Soldier · 09-06-2010, 04:10 AM,

I think the reason BUNKERS in PzC do not have a facing is because the BUNKER hex really does not represent solely a single or series of bunkers. It represents a more fortified hex with bunkers as the dominant feature. This is a matter of scale, tactical versus operational. PzC is operational. Thus a BUNKER hex denotes enhanced minefields, wire, trenches, communication trenches, interlocking fields of fire, etc. that makes the position very strong.

Isolating a BUNKER hex is the best thing to do. The defenders will automatically loose two levels of morale. One for isolation and one for low ammo. (Seems the AI can never resist firing defensive fire to avoid a low ammo situation.) This two step loss is a considerable degradation in the defense of the hex. Coupled with the fact that a disruption for AT or artillery will lower the defensive morale a third step, makes even A quality units isolated in a BUNKER now D morale! If you can not assault that successfully, may I suggest you play a more gentile game, like cricket?

How much more help does one need to take a BUNKER?

The idea that defenders in a BUNKER / bunker hex should get a fire bonus to help disrupt the attackers before they assault is already included in the game.

The comments above also apply to PILLBOX / pillbox hexes.

Dog Soldier

P.Ako · (This post was last modified: 09-06-2010, 05:43 PM by P.Ako.)

^Yeah you have a point, but when assaulting nomrally your main objective is to take the fortified position, not to crush the troops inside, and when you isolate the troops inside, you can spend a whole day assaulting with results like 20/2 men, 15/1 and so on, it happened a lot in S40, and that kind of assault were not realistic...

Sometimes it seems that you're facing cyborgs inside fortifications.

EDIT: And also, all those fortifications have one thing in common: that they were not reversible and had not defences facing every cardinal point, and yes, i know that the bunkers and pilboxes have already a firing bonus but what i'm saying is that the bonus should only be applicable to the facing hexagon and it's inmediate surroundings (SW/S/SE if bunker is facing south)

Strela · 09-06-2010, 06:06 PM,

Backing Dog Soldier here. P.Ako you are thinking too tactical. Bunkers etc represent a fortified hex and include multiple defensive features that would provide improved protection from any direction, whether it be mineefields, trench lines etc.

Too many players forget this is an operational game with two hour turns and 1 km hexes and at that scale some of the tactical nuances will be generalised. Squad Battles is where you would expect to see all these little features - not PzC.

P.Ako · 09-06-2010, 08:15 PM,

It's operational yes, but 1km per hexagon is not big enoguh to abstract the bunkers and pillboxes that many.

cazart! · 09-13-2010, 02:04 PM,

I don't entirely disagree with the idea. yes, it is a bit tactical, but a fortified zone is going to be stronger from some directions compared to others. Older games don't need to be modified - the default should still be all around, but it might prove valuable in the editor to have directional facing. We have it in Squad Battles now.

But, having a bit of insight into how John works (and Glenn, Ed, and others have pointed this out several times) there needs to be a game situation that needs this as a feature.

Maybe PzCamp - Winter War? Just a thought.

Glenn Saunders · 09-14-2010, 12:42 AM,

(09-13-2010, 02:04 PM)cazart! Wrote: But, having a bit of insight into how John works (and Glenn, Ed, and others have pointed this out several times) there needs to be a game situation that needs this as a feature.

See Normandy 44

There are Bunkers\Pillboxes with Guns that are limited in their facing and can't fire outside that covered arc. But they are still very much fortified for non covered arc directions.

At 1km hexes directional facing is not something John felt we could get into. In fact, even at 250m hexes (a previosu series John did for another company) Bunkers and Pillboxes were not directional in orientation. And I don't see this as something we will be pursuing for new titles

Glenn