Infantry Against Tanks 1941

[Mad Russian]

Anyone remember Carrell's description of Russian "mine dogs?" Trained to feed under tanks with engines running, the Russians would strap high explosives to them and the poor dogs would try to run under German tanks expecting to be fed. No, this wasn't very effective.

I remember them being pretty effective. When the Germans shot at them they ran back under the Soviet tanks and then the charges went off. It turned out to be a pretty good way to kill Soviet tanks.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Combat Wombat]

[quote='captainkije' pid='330283' dateline='1285478898']
Anyone remember Carrell's description of Russian "mine dogs?" Trained to feed under tanks with engines running, the Russians would strap high explosives to them and the poor dogs would try to run under German tanks expecting to be fed. No, this wasn't very effective.

I remember them being pretty effective. When the Germans shot at them they ran back under the Soviet tanks and then the charges went off. It turned out to be a pretty good way to kill Soviet tanks.

Good Hunting.

he he . not too sure about that ? i'm pretty sure that Beevor in his book 'The Fall of Berlin' mentioned the mine dogs and that German snipers would routinely pick off any dog they could .. unfortunatley can't access my copy at the present time !

[Bear]

I think that if the Russians had been performing so greatly and consistantly across the fronts and that the mighty molotov was indeed so mighty, the Germans would have picked up the weapon and produced it in great numbers instead of investing research into the Pzfaust and other AT weapons. As well, there should be Russian formations that are common knowledge of everyone, that are well know for combat greatness like many German formations such as the GD and several SS divisions, to name a few.

This quote is a fraud, false and does not come close to anything I wrote here. I never said that and this thread is a record that I DID NOT WRITE THAT.

[Mr Yormsha]

British Tommy. Don't fret my friend. I'm still here.

regarding the mine dogs, i think they were trained to find food under tanks. Unfortunatley they were trained using Russian tanks. And the dogs ran straight under the Russian tanks so I am told.

As for previous posts.

I have yet to read anything that counters my arguement. I see posts being discected line by line, with answers beneath that aren't really answers at all.

here's a quote;

You do understand this is all about playing CMBB right? You do understand that at times they would fight like lions and then the same unit just days later would surrender without a single shot being fired at them? What would you call that if you don't like the term fickle?

Now I'll take this as one example. whenever I've played CM, i have never ever had a unit, any unit, at the start of a game just surrender without a shot being fired. it doesn't happen. ever.

So you can't be talking about CM.

So its real world we're discussing.

and the dictionary definition of the term 'Fickle' means someone who's mind is changed on a whim. these people have suffered years of depravation and hardship. they are not fickle. that is the point i am trying to make.

AND if were talking CM how can a unit be fickle. its a computer game. fickle can't come into it.

Thats what makes my blood boil.

this thread has wandered so far off the straight and narrow its untrue...

(OK I'm going to have to step away from the keyboard and go and calm down a little...)

[Ratzki]

I think that if the Russians had been performing so greatly and consistantly across the fronts and that the mighty molotov was indeed so mighty, the Germans would have picked up the weapon and produced it in great numbers instead of investing research into the Pzfaust and other AT weapons. As well, there should be Russian formations that are common knowledge of everyone, that are well know for combat greatness like many German formations such as the GD and several SS divisions, to name a few.

This quote is a fraud, false and does not come close to anything I wrote here. I never said that and this thread is a record that I DID NOT WRITE THAT.

You were making a point on page two of this thread how great the performance was of the 1st Guards Mot. Rifle Division in stopping the German advance in the Orsha Smolensk area during 1941. I was commenting that it might not have been so on a consistent basis. This division was totally wiped out in July 1941 near Smolensk (Glantz- Colossus Reborn) and had to be totally remade. What I have been trying to say is yes(note the word YES), the Russians did have very (read VERY) limited success in 1941 and early 42, but by no means can it be said that they all or even some had continued success during their often short lives. And on top of this, most Russian successes came on the shirt-tails of poor German logistics, ect. Once these German setbacks had time to regroup, they went right back to roughing up Russian divisions across the fronts. This continued right up to late 1942. Again, with fewer and fewer resources and men the Germans continued to make gain after gain against numerically superior and often better equiped Russian formations.
You also made sure that the molotov issue was brought forth in your post as though it somehow had some bearing on the outcome of the battles involving the 1st Guards Mot. Rifle Division. I am not arguing that they probably had quite a few of the cocktails in hand, but I suggested by loooking at what the other nations in the war were researching and producing at the time in the way of AT weapons, that there value must have been rather limited by nature. And for Mr Yormsha, this would apply to both real life and CMBB experience. As MR has stated elsewhere, this is all they had so they used them, but it does not mean that they would not have went to something else given the chance, or that they performed exceptionally well in any situation.

[Mad Russian]

Actually if you go back to the front Bear said the use of the Molotov Cocktail was two fold.

1) To kill vehicles.
2) To make them back up or to have them fail morale checks.

We have pretty much concentrated on #1. #2 is a very real result. If a vehicle is in danger of infantry attack and has any morale issues at all the MC may well make them abandon the vehicle or at the least back up.

While game results don't show much success of the MC to take out closed top vehicles the AI acts as though they are a super weapon and fear them. If you get a vehicle in an awkward situation a MC can be just the weapon to at least make them back up.

Bear also said that they are not a stand alone weapon. I also agree with this. They work much better in conjunction with other weapons. The problem is that often times they are the only AT weapon you have anywhere in the area. If so you will have to use it and hope for the best.

Now Mr. Yormsha, what was your specific question and I'll try to answer it. You rambled a lot in your original post. Therefore I answered each point you made as you went on. I'm sorry that somewhere in there I missed either the intent of your post or the actual question. Some of the ones you consider to not be answers might be where I allow that your opinions don't coincide with mine. What do you want me to say that you're wrong? I don't think you necessarily are. We all read books. We all take something away from what we read. We form opinions on what we read and our life experience. Your opinions just seem to not agree with mine is all. That is an answer from my point of view.

The blending of the real and game worlds started way back in post #8. Nobody seemed to minded having the weapon brought to the discussion in a historical context back then. You seem to now.

When I make comments about how I commanded Russian soldiers, that is course referring to a CMBB situation and not my personal experiences as a junior leader in the Red Army in the 1940's.

Again, when I say Soviet infantry was fickle I was talking about real world situations. Like you were when you gave your illustration of Soviet infantry units only having 1 rifle for 20 men. In CMBB they are all armed with something.

So, you've blended the two realities as well as the rest of us. That's fine, but you can't have it both ways. You can't get righteous about me doing it and then in your next paragraph you get to do it.

As to my making your blood boil, that's an interesting response to a discussion about a wargame on a computer. We were all walking down our own garden path without knowing we'd become lost until you showed up to tell us.

Thanks for that.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Bear]

I agree Bear. Just how good are your Russian units and leaders in 1941? Mine were never very good.

In fact, far from being good they were close to being the worst units and leaders of any army, at any time period in the entire war. Not the best of times to use the Molotov Cocktail. Of course that's when they were most prevalent.


Good Hunting.

MR

:soap:
Here is where the discussion about Molotov Cocktails was subverted by this most provocative opinion that is entirely Off Topic.

Many members and visitors to our Club might be misled, confused or even offended by such remarks since we are an internet based club that prides itself on war games and the historical backgrounds surrounding our gaming activities.

---

I think that if the Russians had been performing so greatly and consistantly across the fronts and that the mighty molotov was indeed so mighty, the Germans would have picked up the weapon and produced it in great numbers instead of investing research into the Pzfaust and other AT weapons. As well, there should be Russian formations that are common knowledge of everyone, that are well know for combat greatness like many German formations such as the GD and several SS divisions, to name a few.

This quote is a fraud, false and does not come close to anything I wrote here. I never said that and this thread is a record that I DID NOT WRITE THAT.

You were making a point on page two of this thread how great the performance was of the 1st Guards Mot. Rifle Division in stopping the German advance in the Orsha Smolensk area during 1941. I was commenting that it might not have been so on a consistent basis. This division was totally wiped out in July 1941 near Smolensk (Glantz- Colossus Reborn) and had to be totally remade. What I have been trying to say is yes(note the word YES), the Russians did have very (read VERY) limited success in 1941 and early 42, but by no means can it be said that they all or even some had continued success during their often short lives. And on top of this, most Russian successes came on the shirt-tails of poor German logistics, ect. Once these German setbacks had time to regroup, they went right back to roughing up Russian divisions across the fronts. This continued right up to late 1942. Again, with fewer and fewer resources and men the Germans continued to make gain after gain against numerically superior and often better equiped Russian formations.
You also made sure that the molotov issue was brought forth in your post as though it somehow had some bearing on the outcome of the battles involving the 1st Guards Mot. Rifle Division. I am not arguing that they probably had quite a few of the cocktails in hand, but I suggested by loooking at what the other nations in the war were researching and producing at the time in the way of AT weapons, that there value must have been rather limited by nature. And for Mr Yormsha, this would apply to both real life and CMBB experience. As MR has stated elsewhere, this is all they had so they used them, but it does not mean that they would not have went to something else given the chance, or that they performed exceptionally well in any situation.

Not true.
I never said the 1.Moscow Motorized Division was a Guards unit. It now seems, after two misquotes attributed to me, that there is more afoot here than a simple discussion about Molotov Cocktails, eh

---

Hmmm.

Interesting thread.

I think it began with a sort of 'Are Molotov cocktails any good?'

And decended into 'Russian infantry are the worst infantry units ever. Period.'

Via 'I've read loads more books than you have.'

Which slightly disturbs me. Why? Well bacause we seem to slip, without thought, into game world and real world.

So. From the top. (In the world of CMBB,) I've killed tanks with molotov cocktails before. And given them one almighty fright. So by a dictionary definition they are not 'useless'.

Secondly. (Snap my fingers, back in the real world.) The point made about 'carrying a molotov to berlin' and all that rubbish. It completely misses the point. The beauty of a molotov was you could assemble virtually anywhere.

Imagine.

'Quick the enemy are coming, and they have tanks. We could kick in a door of some building. Find some bottles (or other fragile vessel,) a bit of cloth (the arm of your undershirt would do...) and he presto. Quite a potent anti tank weapon if he happened to drive too close.'

That was the real beauty of it. Much better than any anti personel grenade in my book.

Right onwards, with the march of a zealot. the Russians are rubbish infantry.

A statement that borders on racist/childishly naive. (IMHO.)

And again i'm going to ask you to imagine something.

Imagine, you teachers at school had all been shot. on the orders of your government. and members of the local council. and doctors. and pretty much any one else the government considered a 'threat'. maybe a brother, uncle, cousin.

that was your day to day life. (which, before all that was a damn sight harder than anything we're used to today.)

then one day news comes through that a foreign army approaches.

but you're ordered to fight them. but i'm afraid there's one rifle between twenty.

what would you do?

think about it a minute.

which is why, when i hear them dismissed as "fickle" i find deeply disturbing. It really does make my blood boil.

Especially when coupled with that 'when I've commanded the Russians..' stuff. you're mixing up two incomparible things.

On the whole i think they fought like lions. way beyond any 'western' comprehension.

I think Bear made a few good points but was getting unfairly slaughtered. And i think people should think a little harder before they wade in with their (lets face it they're not facts) opinions.

I'll go now and leave you alone.

So you stir the pot then say I will leave you alone now????
Why don't you read again what has been said on this thread instead of ranting on and insulting the people who have posted on this thread?
Makes my blood boil springs to mind here!!

Brit Tommy, I do not feel at all insulted by Mr. Yormsha at all. Refreshing to have someone not encouraging spin, or going Off Topic. :smoke:

Matter of fact, Mr Yormsha has pointed out that this thread was/is about Molotov Cocktail use in CM. Others here in this thread digressed into a suspicious view that the Soviet Army were the most inferior and "uncivilized" (shooting Axis troops in the back, feigning death, collaborators etc.) soldiers of WW2? (Quite astounding in light of the record of Axis atrocities in WW2) I did not go OFF TOPIC. Mr Yormsha has chimed in late and observed that the Molotov Cocktail thread had been hijacked for some oddly subtle yet provocative innuendos. These sorts of ideas that do not belong in a war game club. I suspect Mr. Yormsha has detected the same and is letting the Thread Record speak for itself when he cordially bows out of the looming rant/rave/flame up here.

[Mad Russian]

Check my last post Bear. You'll see I was trying to bring you back to the main topic.

I'm sorry you think that my opinions may mislead, confuse or even offend, when they are backed up with evidence of the historical backgrounds surrounding our gaming activities. General statements made out of ignorance would seemingly be more likely to have that effect. Or maybe there is only one view of the historical events here on the Blitz and those don't coincide with mine.

You wanted me to look at specific scenarios and I listed some others that were relevant to the exact same situations you quoted. You wanted me read some books and I quoted you a listing of some references, with some more recent authors besides those with a clearly German bias, that I know to be of good quality, of which your books were included.

You said that my references to Germans being shot by Russian soldiers in the back came from the propaganda magazine Signal. When, in fact, the quote was from a US Army pamphlet, one of the same US Army pamphlets you wanted me to read.

Whose being the spin doctor here?

You made some unsubstantiated comments about the effectiveness of Molotov Cocktails. When there was a differing opinion you didn't seem to like being questioned about your opinion. I'm happy with discussing the mechanics of the game or the historical context with you, or anyone else. I'm not the one running around trying to revise the historical outcome of 1941 or the effectiveness of Molotov Cocktails in CMBB. I didn't even do the test or quote you the results. That was another member from here on the site.

But you could be right, it could be a HUGE conspiracy. Or it could just be some guys discussing how the game works and how that relates to the history behind it all.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Ratzki]

I agree Bear. Just how good are your Russian units and leaders in 1941? Mine were never very good.

In fact, far from being good they we close to being the worst units and leaders of any army, at any time period in the entire war. Not the best of times to use the Molotov Cocktail. Of course that's when they were most prevalent.

CMBB gives them to the Russians all the way to 1945. That's a long stretch. If you are a scenario designer you can limit that use to better effect.

Good Hunting.

MR

[font=Times New Roman]
I suggest reading Karl Shultz aka Paul Carell, Hitler's War On Russia. U.S. Dept of the Army Pamphlet 20-269. German Defensive Doctrine on the Russian Front, U.S. Army Command and General Staff College. Manstein, Lost Victories and Guderian's Panzer Leader. Geographia Atlas of the Second World War. i.e. 1.Moscow Motorized Division, equivalent to a Guards Division of hard core veterans font]

Unless I am off my nut "equivalent to" means same as, equal to. So now I will move on, in order to be equivalent to, they would have to share a similar OOB which was,I believe(NOTE here how I could be wrong), specific to Guards formations. Regular non-Guards formations would not have the same OOB and therefore could not be equivalent to. (Again note how I am trying to get something positive out of this part of the post. There might actually be something here that we can learn. MR will probably set me strtaight if I am correct or not.)
Not trying to nit-pik here, but this is getting rather pathetic. If you have an axe to grind for whatever reason, could you at least grind it out in the open so that we all can get out of the sparks, instead of grinding away lilke mad all while saying that there is no grinding being done. (This last part of the post that has nothing to do with gleening any knowledge, and is more of a "some guys obviously need more fibre in their diet" kind of a statement. Oh yah, almost forgot the little smilie...:whis: Have not used this one before.)

[Mad Russian]

The topic of this thread is Infantry Against Tanks 1941. It's in the CM section and was specifically asked about CMBB.

You Bear, said it has mainly to do with the quality of Soviet infantry and their leadership. Anything to do concerning Molotov Cocktails, Soviet infantry or their leadership would appear to be ON TOPIC.

But again, I may be wrong, as that's just my own opinion and it doesn't seem to match yours.

You're wrong about one thing though. There's not a looming rant/rave/flame up coming here. Everybody has an opinion and they are pretty much all equal as far as I'm concerned.

Good Hunting.

MR