Low Ammo OOB

[keepitloki]

Then you raise the question of how fast ammo gets used up with semi-auto weapons like the Garand M1 and Gewehr 43 or fully auto like Stg 44, relative to bolt action rifles like the Kar 98 or Lee Enfield. And then SMGs?
Maybe adjusting the ammo loadout according to kill rate would also be appropriate (i.e. Bolt action - 1, Semi-auto - 2, SMG - 5 etc.).
Did British troops really only get 50 rounds per rifle? I believe it but it seems very low.

[Cross]

Then you raise the question of how fast ammo gets used up with semi-auto weapons like the Garand M1 and Gewehr 43 or fully auto like Stg 44, relative to bolt action rifles like the Kar 98 or Lee Enfield. And then SMGs?
Maybe adjusting the ammo loadout according to kill rate would also be appropriate (i.e. Bolt action - 1, Semi-auto - 2, SMG - 5 etc.).

I think you are exactly right, assault rifles, SMGs and semi-auto weapons were not more powerful than rifles, but are given a higher KILL rating because they send more ammo down range in the same period of time.

Rifles have a KILL (damage) rating of 1, and we give them 1 SP ammo unit for each real life round.

Therefore, a consistent and logical way to translate real life ammo into SP ammo units is to divide the real life ammo by the weapons SP ‘KILL’ (damage/burst) rating.

This approach would give the following SP ammo units to these weapons:

SMGs
MP40:.................. 38...... (ammo 192 / KILL 5 = 38)
M3:..................... 36...... (ammo 180 / KILL 5 = 36)
Sten UK:.............. 32...... (ammo 160 / KILL 5 = 32)
Thompson US:.......30...... (ammo 180 / KILL 6 = 30)
PPsH 41:.............. 28...... (ammo 142 / KILL 5 = 28)

SA Rifles
M1 Garand:...........40...... (ammo 80 / KILL 2 = 40)
M1 Carbine Para:... 40...... (ammo 80 / KILL 2 = 40)
M1 Carbine USMC:..38...... (ammo 75 / KILL 2 = 38)
SVT38/40:.............30...... (ammo 60 / KILL 2 = 30)

Assault Rifles
StG 44:.................53...... (ammo 160 / KILL 3 = 53)
FG42:...................53...... (ammo 160 / KILL 3 = 53)

SMGs would have the least bursts, using up ammo very quickly, which is exactly as it was in real life.

Rifles are the most efficient, which is why most men in the squad were issued rifles.

Did British troops really only get 50 rounds per rifle? I believe it but it seems very low.

I think the WW2 standard for most nations was 60, but I'm not certain. The Americans always get a bit carried away (100) :smoke:

Though British riflemen were actually carrying 100 rounds each, but the other 50 were for the Bren gun. I've read that British doctrine considered the LMG 70% of it's section firepower. But 70% seems a bit high to me.

Anyway, this load-out makes more sense when you look at the following:

British section
Rifles 50 each
LMG 1000

US squad
Rifles 100 each
LMG 640


.

[Weasel]

Interesting stuff you are working on here, it would change the way the game is played for sure.

[keepitloki]

I think it would change the game in a good way. More management. Less need for negotiations over z-fire rules (Go ahead, use up all your ammo!). Make the ordnance sections useful for something other than an all game long mortar barrage...

[Imp]

With support weapons I agree could add some intrest to the game at squad level though I think it gets a bit clumsy when talking about its main weapon be it rifle smg or carbine.
The game does not model picking up fallen comrades ammo if getting short or if LMG shares ammo deciding how to allocate as run low between weapons. Then as a last resort well trained troops will pick up enemy weapons & ammo.
SS taking of whatever train station on Eastern Front & repulsing attacks comes to mind. Tanks ran out of HE first so striped of weapons & ammo but MGs still started runing out, rifles becoming critical. By the time relief arrived MGs were long out of ammo SS were armed with Russian gear if remember correctly total German weapons in use were 2 Lugers & 1 rifle with about 13 rounds left.
This at a time when Germans probably had a full ammo loadout so slot 1 weapon needs to air on high side really.
Support stuff could if wish go the other way many cases where the supply line means little available, Stalingrad as one for both sides.
Just mention as very dependant on situation & perhaps as little used use Green, Red, Blue OOBs as short ammo alternatives to see how it plays. My feeling is though its the support stuff that runs out first not the squad as a rule of thumb, that includes late war German artillery due to a severe lack of rounds. They had to wait & be very selective with targets unlike their opponents.
Conscript troops good argument for low ammo less likely to pick up & only issued minimal amounts as expected to be dead in hours in some cases.

[Cross]

Hi John,

I don't think the whole captured weapons thing really has anything to do with what I'm trying to do. If you're playing a situation where you don't think squad ammo should be an issue, just use the regular OOB or turn the Ammo Limit button off in Preferences.

Even with the Infantry ammo I'm suggesting, support weapons like mortars and artillery will still run dry first. Medium mortars have only 5 turns of ammo (40 rounds)! And artillery not much more. Currently, in the vast majority of battles, the only weapons which have to conserve ammo are artillery.

This OOB would be for players who think that Infantry and MG ammo, especially MG ammo, should also be conserved, or resupplied on occasion. It will also bring a little more realism to the current situation where just about every nation and type of weapon has 80 ammo!

regards,

[Imp]

What I was trying to point out is for squads their slot 1 weapon they will probably keep going by whatever means possible.
10 men 60 shots
They have fired 10 shots when 2 killed leaving 100 shots to be distributed among 8 men. If they took all the ammo those 8 men would now have more shots than they started with. Not saying they would but units will pick up stuff if running low I would have thought

[Walrus]

A very interesting discussion for sure.
I do think Imp make a good point, however Cross' point is also valid...you only use the Low ammo option when both players agree anyway.

I still think it will be intense to actually implement.

How are you planning to do this?...in the actual code I mean.
Would you would have to go through every unit in every nation and manually change the load? Or is there a faster option...that would not send you mental.

Any interest from the SPCAMO guys with this?

Good luck.
I would give it a go for sure...it's a worthy idea.

[Cross]

John,

I just don't see the relevance of your points to this proposed OOB. How is what you're suggesting any different for the current OOB. If I lose a MG, an artillery gun, a mortar, an infantry section, none of their ammo or weapons are available to other units.

If you're going to use that sort of logic regarding an OOB, you may as well say, 'well what about casualties requiring men to take them to the rear'? It just has no relevance to this game, its not modelled.

But ammo use, and overuse, is modelled. We are keenly aware of that fact in regards to artillery. This OOB would just make ammo use, and ammo overuse, for infantry and MGs more of a factor.

[keepitloki]

If it were possible to model a low ammo "option" like the FAST ARTY option or the VEHICLE BREAKDOWN option, that would be perfect, obviously its something both players would have to agree on.
I think the idea is feasable and I'd use it (or at least give it a try).