Low Ammo OOB

[Imp]

Simon

Its your call you asked for input dismiss if disagree, what I would like to see & have modeled a couple of times as think has greatest effect is as said more adjustments to support weapons not the squads main weapon.
Its also a lot less work.

So main changes.
Ammo reductions for HMG MMG even LMGs so squad is down to rifles once its out.
If wanted to do some extra work make some new formations hence Red Green Blue suggestion.
2 HMG & an ammo wagon
Some Infantry companies with mixed squad choice.
Example German made up of 2 squad types one with AT weapons one without as not enough to go round. Sorry not everyone gets a PF get him in place.
If want to model units that truly have supply problems so very limited ammo weapons missing completly but this is diffrent then use conscripts & adjust accordingly, morale will be low probably starving/freezing to.

As to picking up ammo etc not being modeled correct but that does not mean its not assumed.
My view generalising.
You are not going to pick up something heavy or that you do not know how to use but assume most could use a rifle.
You are making the assumption SMG units will have the smallest number of shots, sounds right. But but they are also killing people at near point blank would you not go & pick up his weapon if yours is nearly out. So really he should now have a rifle say but game just says carry on with SMG but instead of 30 shots give him say 45 to allow for picking stuff up.
Yes on occasion might pick up something heavier even if dont know how to use it but it takes a special kind of guy to pick up an AT weapon & decide to see if he can get it to work.
The guy already loaded down with loads of ammo is not going to pick up much but as you are suggesting the Russians probably wish they had more so would likely take what they could from fallen soldiers.
In summary the less ammo you have for your main weapon the more likely you are to make an effort to get more.
Game wise if the LMG runs out first the squad can still fight but thats a big lump of its firepower gone especially at medium range & above.
Want to get real reduce late war German artillery loadouts by 50-70% with no reloads allowed 10 or so shells per gun per day was not uncommon but people would moan I only get 2 fire missions.

Like I say Simon its your call my view is just adjusting ammo for the main squad weapon has the least impact is the most time consuming & in my view there is an argument for it & only it to be set higher than what they were issued with.
Just doing the 4 main sides probably talking about changing well over a thousand units.

[Cross]

How are you planning to do this?...in the actual code I mean.
Would you would have to go through every unit in every nation and manually change the load? Or is there a faster option...that would not send you mental.

Any interest from the SPCAMO guys with this?

Good luck.
I would give it a go for sure...it's a worthy idea.

Hi Jason,

I would use the Mobhack OOB Editor and go through one nation at a time. I've never edited the OOB files before, so there will be a learning curve. If anyone has any pointers I’d appreciate the advice.

I would just do the popular nations at first, and if there was an interest in additional nations they could be done according to demand.

I did go through a nation and start editing ammo to see what it was like, and it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be. I’d only be changing ammo loads for Infantry units, including Cavalry, Motorcycle, and MG units that are not mounted on vehicles.

I think the main issue is knowing exactly what you are going to change to what, before you start editing. Otherwise you’d end up with an inconsistent jumble of load-outs.

I may have nailed down the load-out for regular infantry, but then you have to consider the elite units. You’d obviously give Soviet Guards units a full Rifle load of 60, and at least two grenades a man, but what about Commandos, SS, Paratroops, Engineers, Cavalry, Assault troops, Ski troops etc. Some of these units deliberately traveled light, but which should have different load-outs and by what extent?

It’s not that these load-outs have to be perfect - any changes will be an improvement to the current ‘every weapon gets 80 or 90’ approach – but I need to know before I start editing.

The good news is that I have plenty of time to do the research, as it doesn’t make sense to edit the OOB until after the next game update release, which is probably late December; though I will likely do a couple of nations before then, just to experiment.

---

Would SP CAMO be interested? I don’t know. They may be more convinced if lower ammo OOBs had been thoroughly used and enough guys suggested it as an improvement.

I’ve heard nothing but good reports about Alby’s SPWaW Enhanced low ammo OOB, and I believe his ammo load-outs go even lower than what I’m suggesting.

[Cross]

John,

You are right, I did ask for feedback, so I’m sorry if it appeared like I was dismissing your input, I was not.

Scrounging
I understand what you are saying about rifles being the last to run out and that they can scrounge additional ammo from the battlefield. And that is one of the things I want to accomplish by lowering MGs more than rifles, on the most part. But even scrounging ammo has limits.

In a real firefight troops can run out of ammo in just a few minutes. In real life an Enfield’s ‘mad minute’ would expend about 20 rounds in one minute; so three minutes of intense rifle firing can cause ammo problems.

A firefight lasting 15 SP turns is about 30-45 minutes of real time. Currently, SP infantry can engage in ‘full on’ firing for almost that entire period. The ammo OOB I’m proposing will lower the ‘full on firefight’ from 30-45 minutes (15 turns or 90 ammo) to 20-30 minutes (10 turns or 60 ammo). Still way off a ‘realistic’ 3 minutes of intense firing; but does allow for a considerable margin for scrounging ammo off casualties and enemy.

IOW, I think 60 ammo still allows for your concern that infantry get to fire a lot more than they should be able to.

Fire Discipline
Apparently, in a real firefight, one of the hardest things to instill in troops is ‘fire discipline’. Fire discipline is where you don’t allow your MG to fire off its entire load-out of 1200 rounds in two minutes; or your riflemen to fire off all their ammunition in three minutes.

We need a little ‘fire discipline’ in SP, especially when it comes to ‘Z-fire’. Currently, there is no need for fire discipline in SP. You can fire your MGs and rifles at just about their highest rate, and not have to worry about ammo in most battles.

Late War German Artillery
I hear you about German artillery shell shortages. But I think players can more easily model this by agreeing to limit German artillery, to say 5%, or not allowing German ordnance trucks to re-supply artillery.

Testing
I also think you are right about testing this low ammo OOB. It may be that it only has a place in shorter battles, or certain types of battle. But we may find that it works well in longer battles with the judicious use of ammo re-supply. Only testing will tell.

Regards,

[Imp]

No problem Simon as you say its a good idea to hammer this stuff out before you even think about making changes.
60 ammo sounds adequate to me my suggestion was more for those with low ammo like 30s give them an extra 10 or so to allow for scrounging.
I think it will encourage more realistic unit use & make defend delay more intresting. A concentrated attack on one point & new units need to be fed there as ammo runs low.

Are you aware in the OOB editor under files you can export as CSV files.
Load an OOB go to files save as CSV.
Asks if want to dump the whole lot (probably easiest just write down the OOB numbers that you are intrested in.)
You can load these into a spreadsheet, easy way probably try opening it & when screen pops up choose a spreadsheet. It will now use this automatically to open.

[Cross]

Thank you for the CSV tip. I tried it and it works! That may come in useful.

I took a good look at the SPWaW Enhanced OOB, because those OOB have been used for a while, so must work OK, and I've heard good reports.

They have:

German
Rifle 60/50
LMG 60/50
SMG 60/40

British
Rifle 50
Bren 50
Vickers 60

Soviet
Rifle 40/50
SMG 40

And they only have about 10 or 12 grenades a squad!

[Imp]

No probs makes it easy to check you got all instances of say a weapon & sort into some sort of order.

Never paid that much attention but those sort of figures in a normal game I would expect ammo only to come into play if the units have been very heavily engaged.

Special forces cavalry partisans etc could easily lose another 10 to reflect their nature, hit & run. Also justifies Partisans getting 7MP to reflect this & local knowledge of the area.

On MGs you could do 2 types, normal & as a fortification class.
Fortification class could have sandbags or a bunker if like or just be the standard MG but comes with higher ammo & a move of zero. As its a fortification can only purchase if you have them & crew will I think bail & leave the gun like an arty piece.

Any probs say sure you will manage though but its very very important to save, so easy to do the changes & not commit them unless you get yourself in the habit.:hissy:

[Cross]

I managed to save my custom OOBs with any probs. Like you said, as long as you commit the changes as you go it works fine.

I won't touch any of the fortifications. They usually have 90 or 120 ammo, which is as it should be for those units.

I will have different ammo load-outs for LMGs and HMGs (Tripod MGs).

The HMGs will have more ammo than the LMGs. I worked out a system and spreadsheet where MGs have a maximum ammo based on whether they're a HMG or LMG, and what their KILL value is.

HMG ammo is also calculated according to the number of MGs and the number of crew in the unit.

LMGs use a similar system based on squad size. So if you purchase a 3 man LMG team, or a 4 man scout team with LMG, they won't be carrying 1200 rounds of ammo.

I have 3 men teams carrying 60% of their LMGs full ammo load, and it goes up to that weapons full load for 10 men or more.

Infantry weapon load-outs have been assigned based on the webbing ammo pouches that the troops carried, when it's known.

Otherwise, I'm using a generic average for that type of weapon with it's KILL value.

Grenades are assigned based on the four weapon slots. If two of a units weapon slots are filled with heavy gear, then the unit will normally carry a light grenade load. If only one of the slots is filled with heavy weapons, then the unit will usually carry a heavy grenade load.

But there's a few exceptions, like units with SMGs as their primary weapon in slot 1 will get a 'free' upgrade to heavy grenades, as SMG troops are usually intended for close combat.

I'm looking forward to testing them soon. It will be interesting to see if I need some sort of dedicated ordnance supply for each company, and the impact that will have on the game.

[Greybeard]

Hello Cross..

I little tongue-in-cheek here..

howa bout going into the Company formation.. reduce the CO squad by 2 guys, and then mod an 'ammo box' unit.. give it 2 men, a rifle/carbine in slot 1 and moves at 4 or 3.. make the carry cost so only a medium truck or HT can move them (no jeeps) .. it stays an ammo unit and gets paired with the CO using the OOB editor.. which makes the ammo guys only available when a company is purchased..

then in the game.. limit other ammo supply units to say.. 1 supply unit for every 6 gun tubes for artillery only.. no other ammo supply allowed..

now you can tune down the ammo load.. and there are 2 poor slobs that get to schlep the ammo to the troops..

while extra ammo is available, it's limited (ammo boxes re-supply at the slowest rate and only 1 unit per company).. can't move fast.. on occasion will blow up (under artillery for most likely) taking some poor friendlies with them.. if the ammo guys do get destoyed, the company that needed them will be in a world of hurt..

just an idea

:)

Greybeard

[Imp]

Dont think it will work type of ammo supplier & hence rate is determined by type cannister truck, dump.
Pretty sure without reading the GG once you give it movement it supplies as a truck, number of men determines if its a dump or cannister.
Think you could increase cannister carry cost with no problems, buy none mechanised units mules or wagons to move it.
Formations like MG Co or whatever they are called group of normally 6 MGs normally have their own dedicated ammo suppliers

[Cross]

Hello Cross..

I little tongue-in-cheek here..

I agree with the spirit of your idea.

I could be wrong, but I think if I change any formations in the OOB it creates problems for AI purchasing. My approach is to only change the ammo, and to have the least impact possible on the OOB.

Something close to your idea could be implemented using existing ammo supply units and a pre-battle agreement.

In some longer battles I was expecting that I may have to purchase one ammo carrier or canister per company. If I bought a canister I would move it around with a halftrack or Bren gun carrier, or something.

If an ammo supply unit is lost, it certainly could cause serious problems in some situations, but it's probably like other losses on the battlefield, you have to fill the gap, make do, 'adapt, improvise and overcome' and all that...