PzC Kharkov '43 Just Released

Gordons HQ · 12-05-2010, 05:11 AM,

Sorry I don't see things the same way as the game developer of PzC's here.
Once I spend my hard earned money and buy a computer game it becomes my game although it is copywright.
I will then decide where and on what computer to play it and not have someone tell me where I can play it. Can you imagine buying a Music CD and being told you can only play it on one music player, don't make me laugh.
If I want to play my game on another computer to this laptop then I will and no one will stop me.
It becomes illegal if I give this game to someone else I agree, but that's the law and that's entirely another issue.
This is not the way to go forward IMO and I am sorry things have got to this state of affairs .
I hope sense will prevail here.

Gordon

Gasbag · 12-05-2010, 05:25 AM,

I'm sorry to hear that the game is only being sold via download. With my slow dial up connection I'd probably die of old age before I got my game...

P.Ako · (This post was last modified: 12-05-2010, 06:12 AM by P.Ako.)

With all my respects toward another POV, i'm not buying this one, the reason? apart from the stated before about DRM, i consider it to be more a DLC (downloable content) than a game of it's own because it doesn't have a new map (at least from what i can tell comparing the maps posted in the scenario design center and the official page) and it's price, which i consider it to be too high for what it offers.

I'm not from the USA but i don't mind waiting for my CD, the feeling of going to the post office and pick the cardboard box with "something" inside is... unexplanaible... Big Grin

That said i refuse to buy nothing on direct download.

Marquo · 12-05-2010, 07:02 AM,

"i consider it to be more a DLC (downloable content) than a game of it's own because it doesn't have a new map (at least from what i can tell comparing the maps posted in the scenario design center and the official page) and it's price, which i consider it to be too high for what it offers."

I think this is what bothers me the most about this "new game:" from reading the posted manual, it appears that the old K'42 map was tweaked a bit, and for the most part Rick's great OOBs were used - which he developed for his superb K 43 player mod downloadable for free from this site. Really for the most part this is akin to what was done to the original Smolensk Campaign: the map was enhanced, the OOB tweaked and then it became downloadable for free from Glenn's PzC site.

This effort seems like an enhanced module add on for the original K'42; it could have easily been offered as a "patch" for the original; I would have paid some for the enhanced map - but all the other improvements such bunker building, etc. are usually disseminated as free upgrades; and thus far no one has really asked to be paid to download a mod from the online vault. VM's work is a labor of love for the games and he graces us with his stuff for free.

Anyway, I will by future original PzC works by digital download.

Marquo :)

Glenn Saunders · (This post was last modified: 12-05-2010, 08:14 AM by Glenn Saunders.)

(12-05-2010, 05:25 AM)Gasbag Wrote: I'm sorry to hear that the game is only being sold via download. With my slow dial up connection I'd probably die of old age before I got my game...

We have done a lot of testing with the downlaod speed and I can get you numbers if you wish. My connection is fast but Mark Adams, one of the guys that does the art has a very slow Satelitte connection and I could find out teh downlaod time and speed he had. But I don' know he did it several times in several tests and it worked fine.

Glenn

(12-05-2010, 07:02 AM)Marquo Wrote: I think this is what bothers me the most about this "new game:" from reading the posted manual, it appears that the old K'42 map was tweaked a bit, and for the most part Rick's great OOBs were used - which he developed for his superb K 43 player mod downloadable for free from this site. Really for the most part this is akin to what was done to the original Smolensk Campaign: the map was enhanced, the OOB tweaked and then it became downloadable for free from Glenn's PzC site.

You know that is the beauti of this thing Marq.

I was approached fof a map extension for a mod, some I had resisted doing because we knew there was a full battle here and somethng that could be completely researched and a new game created.

And while the map overlays closer than any other two games, nobody complained when we absorbed the T41 map and added a l;ot to make Alamein.

Nobody has pointed out the common map in Rzhev 42 and Moscow 41. And the Battles are of course completely different.

But there is no denying that the Full game is a complete package and like any title in the series, players are free to purchase a copy or stick with the mod.

But there is a LOT of Game in this title that is not part of the addon mods and stuff that the Scn deigner said he couldn't do without a fair chunk of the Kursk map added to the older Kharkov Map.

Glenn

Strela · 12-05-2010, 09:49 AM,

(12-05-2010, 07:02 AM)Marquo Wrote: "i consider it to be more a DLC (downloable content) than a game of it's own because it doesn't have a new map (at least from what i can tell comparing the maps posted in the scenario design center and the official page) and it's price, which i consider it to be too high for what it offers."

I think this is what bothers me the most about this "new game:" from reading the posted manual, it appears that the old K'42 map was tweaked a bit, and for the most part Rick's great OOBs were used - which he developed for his superb K 43 player mod downloadable for free from this site. Really for the most part this is akin to what was done to the original Smolensk Campaign: the map was enhanced, the OOB tweaked and then it became downloadable for free from Glenn's PzC site.

This effort seems like an enhanced module add on for the original K'42; it could have easily been offered as a "patch" for the original; I would have paid some for the enhanced map - but all the other improvements such bunker building, etc. are usually disseminated as free upgrades; and thus far no one has really asked to be paid to download a mod from the online vault. VM's work is a labor of love for the games and he graces us with his stuff for free.

Anyway, I will by future original PzC works by digital download.

Marquo :)

Ok Marquo, I will bite. We all know you spent many, many hours working on your mod. We all have benefitted from your time and effort. What gets my goat is when you think 30 unique scenarios and campaigns is only good enough for a DLC. That was where the work was. There was over 12 months of pulling that all together and testing it. The OB as you rightly pointed out was Rick's work - but that was just a starting point. Essentally decisions were made around every formation. Every component was changed and validated against multiple sources before being included. To compliment Rick's research the Axis OB was very accurate in layout etc. The Soviets less so. The team I worked with spent a huge amount of time getting a lot of data together and building out the OB. We even went as far as including formations for future scenarios if we get the time.

And that was before we started on the scenarios.

You seem to base your point on the need for a new map. Personally, I disagree. To exclude games from being published because the map already exists means that anyone say wanting the Soviet counter offensive at Moscow is out of luck. Couple that with the point Glenn makes around Tobruk / El Alamein and I don't understand your view. Personally, I would prefer a Tiller published Moscow game than someones mod - even if just for the play testing that has been done. If we hadn't used an existing (modified) map you would be waiting another period of time for a new Panzer Campaigns game.

Finally there has to be a game for people to mod, John, Glenn and the team felt the work done to date was good enough to publish and that provides more longevity for all the great add ons that the community provides.

Glenn Saunders · 12-05-2010, 10:24 AM,

(12-05-2010, 09:49 AM)Strela Wrote: Finally there has to be a game for people to mod, John, Glenn and the team felt the work done to date was good enough to publish and that provides more longevity for all the great add ons that the community provides.

BANG ON!

What Strela brought us was not an Add-on which is how it was proposed original.

This is every bit a new game which has had a lot of thought go into it - wanybody questing this need only look at the designer note.

Glenn

Tide1 · 12-05-2010, 01:32 PM,

I use satelitte Internet. I pay for a 1.0Mbps package it took 1hr 30min to download Kharkov43. If you have 512kbps you have a while to wait:conf: very few things in life are perfect unless you have a fiber optic internet connection :rolleyes:

LukeC · (This post was last modified: 12-05-2010, 02:57 PM by LukeC.)

.....

**Ricky B** · 12-05-2010, 02:31 PM,

(12-05-2010, 09:49 AM)Strela Wrote: Ok Marquo, I will bite. We all know you spent many, many hours working on your mod. We all have benefitted from your time and effort. What gets my goat is when you think 30 unique scenarios and campaigns is only good enough for a DLC. That was where the work was. There was over 12 months of pulling that all together and testing it. The OB as you rightly pointed out was Rick's work - but that was just a starting point. Essentally decisions were made around every formation. Every component was changed and validated against multiple sources before being included. To compliment Rick's research the Axis OB was very accurate in layout etc. The Soviets less so. The team I worked with spent a huge amount of time getting a lot of data together and building out the OB. We even went as far as including formations for future scenarios if we get the time.
....

And since my work was brought into this, although I don't feel it is really anyone else's business, David/Strela and I discussued the use of my oob multiple times, first when he wanted to use it as a basis for his own mod to the game, then when the mod became a future PzC game. We worked things out to where I am not concerned that any of my work on the OOB was used in this project, and what was used was with my full knowledge and support. David was very open in discussing what to me was a potentially touchy issue and kind in both giving credit for what I did and in working things out.

So any use of my material should be left out of this specific discussion, as it really is nobody else's business except mine, David's and John's.

Now Marquo, you did a lot of work on that scenario covering the 4th Battle of Kharkov and its final fall, but had to pack the Soviets in unrealistically to get them on and I think as result never really finalzied that one but it has a lot of possibilities. With the new room to the north of Kharkov it might be doable now, you want to work on it with me? :) Not sure I have time right now but it would be a fun mod to do.

Rick