A few armored car musings and misc. requests

[Jason Petho]

Whenever that will be? :smoke:

Before the second coming.

The second coming of what has yet to be decided.

Jason Petho

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Is in the queue? :chin:
Inquiring minds want to know. :eek1:

I though Modern Wars was the first coming and the 1.05 patch was the second? :bow:



HSL

[Ashcloud]

Why are Bren carriers so bloody useless? They have Bren's - they should shoot like a Bren section shouldn't they? I don't think I have ever had any points from a Bren carrier - maybe against a truck. Am I missing something, am I using them badly?

[John Given]

Why are Bren carriers so bloody useless? They have Bren's - they should shoot like a Bren section shouldn't they? I don't think I have ever had any points from a Bren carrier - maybe against a truck. Am I missing something, am I using them badly?

I use them for scouting if there is a real need. You can turn off their op-fire and put them in forests on high ground. Great for recon when used that way, though some players don't like unloaded halftracks / carriers used for recon, even if the carrier is itself armored and armed. And remember, since they are fully tracked, they can enter 'ruin' hexes. Not many carriers in the game can make that boast.

While we're on the subject, I notice the British "Lloyd" carriers are fully tracked (+ fully enclosed?), and the description says "they came with armored plates meant to be attached to the sides of the vehicle, though they were rarely fitted." Since vehicle defensive values are a sensitive issue for me, IMO the Lloyd should have a 'soft' defense of '3' incorporated with the patch to take the above into account. Just my opinion - it's not like it would unbalance the game or anything.

Great comments so far folks!

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Why are Bren carriers so bloody useless? They have Bren's - they should shoot like a Bren section shouldn't they? I don't think I have ever had any points from a Bren carrier - maybe against a truck. Am I missing something, am I using them badly?

Actually no. They would not fire like a Bren Gun squad.
In a three Bren Carrier section, one Bren carries the Bren gun, the second carries an anti tank rifle, while third carries a 50 mm mortar.

Kinda a hodge podge of armament that tries to do everything to support a Bren Infantry squad. Very 1930's, early mobilized forces, thinking?

I love the Bren carrier. Otto von Blotto is currently kicking my butt, mostly by the early use of his Bren carriers. :eek1:



HSL

[Ashcloud]

Why are Bren carriers so bloody useless? They have Bren's - they should shoot like a Bren section shouldn't they? I don't think I have ever had any points from a Bren carrier - maybe against a truck. Am I missing something, am I using them badly?

Actually no. They would not fire like a Bren Gun squad.
In a three Bren Carrier section, one Bren carries the Bren gun, the second carries an anti tank rifle, while third carries a 50 mm mortar.

Kinda a hodge podge of armament that tries to do everything to support a Bren Infantry squad. Very 1930's, early mobilized forces, thinking?

I love the Bren carrier. Otto von Blotto is currently kicking my butt, mostly by the early use of his Bren carriers. :eek1:



HSL

How does he do that? Are there some basic guidelines or principles that can be followed to be more effective with bren carriers?

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Are there some basic guidelines or principles that can be followed to be more effective with bren carriers?

It is more knowing the unit in game terms.
It is not a tank and 1/2 a half track (minus those rubber tires).
It provides support for it's own as well as other units.
It moves fast enough and far enough.

But, remember (again) that it supports what other units do. By itself, it does not seem like much. Used in combined arms efforts and it is a force multiplier.



HSL

[Hawk Kriegsman]

Everyone is spot on about the Bren transport. It does not do much other then carry Bren sections around. As pointed out they are useful for transport and spotting and not much else. If I am not mistaken the when the Bren section dismounted I believe they took the Bren gun off the carrier.

If your looking from a Bren with some kick, then I would suggest the Bren MG. No transport capacity but a very solid attack factor.

Thanx!

Hawk

---

While we're on the subject, I notice the British "Lloyd" carriers are fully tracked (+ fully enclosed?)

fully tracked = yes, fully enclosed = no, it had a frame supported canvas covering like a truck.

and the description says "they came with armored plates meant to be attached to the sides of the vehicle, though they were rarely fitted." Since vehicle defensive values are a sensitive issue for me, IMO the Lloyd should have a 'soft' defense of '3' incorporated with the patch to take the above into account.

They have a soft defense of 1 like the trucks did (which is basically what they are a tracked truck). Maybe a 2, really not a unit worth wasting time about actually. Another unit your oppenent should never see. :whis:

Thanx!

Hawk

[John Given]

Maybe a 2, really not a unit worth wasting time about actually. Another unit your oppenent should never see. :whis:

Thanx!

Hawk

Thanks again for the comment Hawk, but the fact that these vehicles will generally be kept out of sight is not really the point.

The fact is, they *will* occasionally be spotted, and because Lloyd carriers

1. Have no rubber tires that can be punctured, and

2. Have some armor protection for the sides of the vehicle,

...this should be taken into account when determining the defensive value.

I seem to remember the old panzerblitz tactical booklet of years past saying something to the effect that many "kills" in real life (for vehicles) were in actuality "mobility kills" - that is, the tires or treads were damaged, causing the vehicle to be effectively immobilized, but not destroyed. It's one of the main reasons I suggested that the psw221/222/231, and russian BA-20 armored car need to have their defense factors toned down earlier - they have rubber tires! A single grenade going off nearby would probably flatten all tires on the side of the vehicle facing the explosion. That would not disable a fully tracked vehicle unless the ordnance was practically contacting the tracks.

Just my opinion, but the above factors make a Lloyd carrier (slightly) harder to kill than your average truck.

[Hawk Kriegsman]

Thanks again for the comment Hawk, but the fact that these vehicles will generally be kept out of sight is not really the point.

I disagee. It is a part of the point. Lossing too many or gaining too many points because of trucks is an indication of one side not protecting said trucks (or anyother unit for that matter). Too many times on this board someone claims something is broken with the game, when in all reality it is an issue with that someone's ability to play the game. So instead of striving to improve one's play they call out for the rules to be changed. And no I am not saying you are doing that in this thread.

The fact is, they *will* occasionally be spotted, and because Lloyd carriers
1. Have no rubber tires that can be punctured, and
2. Have some armor protection for the sides of the vehicle,
...this should be taken into account when determining the defensive value.

To bullet point 1. That is a detail too small for an abstract game like CS. That level of is more to the line of Combat Missions (and I am not sure it is even it that game). The defense values range from 1 (wagon) to 22 (Maus). That leaves a mere 22 defense values for the hundreds (thousands) of units in the game. This is even further restricted when you consider the bulk of the values are from 1 to 12. The designers took the time to do what they did and the overwhelming majority of the time you get realistic results.

To bullet point 2. As you quoted in in a earlie post from the unit's description. "they came with armored plates meant to be attached to the sides of the vehicle, though they were rarely fitted." The nullifies you stating above that it has armor protection.

I seem to remember the old panzerblitz tactical booklet of years past saying something to the effect that many "kills" in real life (for vehicles) were in actuality "mobility kills" - that is, the tires or treads were damaged, causing the vehicle to be effectively immobilized, but not destroyed.

I agree 100% with this. A unit getting knocked out in the game represents everything from a direct hit & explosion, to a mobility hit, to a unbuttoned crew member getting hit, to the gunsight being damage, to the crew going "f-this" and bailing out and everything in between. All a loss of 1 SP means in this game is that that 1 SP has been rendered unusable and its services are no longer available to you. Its an abstract you really have no idea what happened to it.

It's one of the main reasons I suggested that the psw221/222/231, and russian BA-20 armored car need to have their defense factors toned down earlier - they have rubber tires! A single grenade going off nearby would probably flatten all tires on the side of the vehicle facing the explosion.

Not necessarily. Where tire full pnuematic, solid or semi solid? Additionally a greande's force (and shrapnel) explodes in a V pattern. More likely you lost 1 SP to a grenade because the commander just bought it.

That would not disable a fully tracked vehicle unless the ordnance was practically contacting the tracks.

Most likely not disabling an armored car either. However as to hitting a crew member, severing a hydralic line, etc.. it is all the same.

Just my opinion, but the above factors make a Lloyd carrier (slightly) harder to kill than your average truck.

As I said before the Llyod should de the same as a truck. And honestly, if you have a unit with a soft defense of 1,2 or 3 it is more often than not toast if it gets shot at.

Thanx!

Hawk