Kharkov '43 campaign game

[larsonney]

Hello!

Arkan and Larsonney have just finished the first 5 days (45+ turns) of the Kharkov '43 Campaign as the Axis side. Our brave opponents have conceded the match, but we enjoyed the game so much we would like to play it again...

We would like to play 2 opponents...and we would entertain either side, Russian or German, again.

We do have a couple of requests to keep in mind...

-We like to have a fairly robust turn rate. While it is a campaign game on a huge map, there are relatively few units (That is what makes it a blast!!). We are looking for a 1-3 day turnaround on turns....that is what we had in the last game.

-We would like to play opponents of experience...new players would probably struggle with the fluid aspect of the campaign.

Who's up for a match??

Jon & Pierre

[Strela]

Hi Jon,

The design team would love to play both of you, but we are buried currently on another project....

That said it will be on our list in the near future. :)

Can you give any insights on why the Russians have conceded? Any feedback on changes we should consider for the campaign? I have just read the latest update for the AAR and it looked like there was a lot happening and a lot in the balance.

Hope you find some willing opponents!

David

[larsonney]

Hi Jon,

The design team would love to play both of you, but we are buried currently on another project....

That said it will be on our list in the near future. :)

Can you give any insights on why the Russians have conceded? Any feedback on changes we should consider for the campaign? I have just read the latest update for the AAR and it looked like there was a lot happening and a lot in the balance.

Hope you find some willing opponents!

David

We would love to play the design team...quite a challenge...we are willing fodder whenever your schedule allows!

Bob shared that our flank attacks in the extreme north & south were too much for them. I had held the day 4 update because we shifted GD north to hit the northern reinforcements as they moved south to Belgorod...we actually had just started day 6 morning when they conceded.

I will post another, final update on the game for as far as we got, & I have asked the Russian team to share their thoughts if they would like.

Jon

I should add that I see no changes needed...a splendid campaign that is easy to play because of the low unit density!

[raizer]

IMHO the russians cant dance with the mobile units of the germans.
Several things come to mind:

1Germans can lead and assault with open top marders and AA guns in this game-despite low def values, we saw numerous examples of C guards, at full strength, but disrupted, get pushed out of dug in hexes-900 guys or so, by x marders or xx aa guns...once that chain starts, that can be a big problem-but it is a factor in all the games here we play. We got terribly unlucky in that aspect that several turns in a row, double stacks of guards, retreated the wrong way when assaulted by aa/marders lol! it happens.

2. Artillery set up-dont use it in this scenario. The russians need their arty if they are to have any chance in this opening phase of the GC. There were times when we spent 8-9-10 consecutive turns trying to set up individual arty units.

3. VST-dont use it, and DONT use explicit supply.

4. Alternate Indirect fire should be used. This will hit everything in a hex-which have consequences for anyone using the uber stacks-and especially the aa/marder stacks that can stack up and push infantry around. This one feature will help the russians almost as much as it helps the allies in F40. Combined with no arty set up, it will push the germans to back off a bit and let the russian attack formulate and gain some tempo.

its about tracks in this game-the germans have a lot the russians dont. Whether tracks are soft aa guns, open top marders or panzers-if the german player knows where your stuff is, he can find a way to get in behind you and isolate anything they choose.

Keith and I got crushed because we went out too hard. We are playing indra and stephen in this game as well-with us as the germans, and the ease of maneuver, with good supplies is remarkable. Unfortunately indra and stephen used the same opt rules as we did. SO if they do better than we did, they are to be praised!

I will think of some others...

[Arkan]

I think it's also a question of morale.
Our german local counter-attacks were effective but costly for us. And the number of destroyed soviet units was insignificant considering all their forces. The best effect of our counter-attacks was that russians were thinking they can't win and decided to surrender... but the same could happen to us too. We had 2 infantry divisions almost entirely destroyed. One of our best divisions, the Das Reich was severly injured with several compagnies and batalions destroyed and... the most important, there was a big big gap in the middle of our lines. Each turn i was carefully watching the replay to try to find some russian units approching the undefended city of Kharkov.

[larsonney]

I would agree with Arkan...our southern counterattack was going well and when GD showed up in the north, I think psychology had a role...as you can see from the AAR, we were hurting...the Russian team conceding definitely took me by surprise.

That said, I haven't seen the actual Russian forces or strength...Jon

[Witblitz]

Ill take a side with a fellow gamer.

[Dog Soldier]

Each turn i was carefully watching the replay to try to find some russian units approching the undefended city of Kharkov.

"Undefended" Kharkov? I must have a wrong copy of this scenario.

I see two full strength SS Pzgr regts defending the approaches to Kharkov. A third fulll strength SS Pzgr rgt is in reserve closer to the city. The scenario S/O allows a fixed SS panzer regt to be placed near Kharkov. My guess it this rgt could reach the city from any of the S/O positions in one turn due to placement along good roads near the city.

Jon & Arkan, can you tell us the strengths of the 1st Pz regt in the Axis S/O at start of this scenario when your game ended? It essentially is rebuilding the entire time.

A second SS pz regt starts in Volchansk. It releases early on day 4 (06:00) and should easily make its way to join the other SS units protecting the approaches to Kharkov.

The closest point to Kharkov from the Russian at start positions is at Korobochkino along the main road to the SE. I calculate that Russian infantry unimpeded could march up this highway in two days. Since no German player will allow such a stroll, it is most likely Russian infantry would not reach Korobochkino until day 4 or 5 depending on the German efforts to delay them. This is a best case for the Russian advance on Kharkov. Your game ended about this same time. So, what Russian force was going to overcome three full strength SS regts and two SS Pz regts with over 100 tanks on turn one (they will grow much stronger before being needed) to force this highway open to take "undefended Kharkov"?

I am completely lost in understanding your statement Arkan about a n "undefended Kharkov" in view of the AAR presented here at the blitz.

What am I missing? Could you explain this some more?

Dog Soldier

[raizer]

Seeing that we surrendered, and the game was posted, I just ran my forward motorized stuff blindly ahead from volchansk W to crossing of the Donnets at Zavody Pervyye and SW to stary saltov, which is btwn 30 and 45 hexes away from the bulk of our force; the 1 hex per turn infantry. The primary road can only take so much traffic.

The remaining crossings (fords) have Das Reich along with GD and the LAH division all sitting in bunkers hehe.

At each crossing I came to there were bunkers stacked with troops. So give us a day and a half to get to the bunkers with our assault force (the grunts and any bridging equipment)-moving one hex each turn, while the germans bring any unit up to full strength that was at half. And LAH is virgin.

We got to volchansk battered, in 45 turns -trust me our stuff was spent. We gave it a good effort, you got the win and beat us down. We know the forces we had. Keith and I have been playing this game for 10 years; it was futile to keep going.

Now Im on the other side of this as well, playing the germans with keith-our opponents are going real slow and have only 2 vps at turn 27 but they will get izyum soon, making 3. I think we might have been at 5 vps by turn 30. We will see how they do by going slow and steady. At turn 49 in our game with lars and Arkan, we had 7 vps with the 8th about to fall, so figure 8 vps by turn 50-which is only half, to the required 15 for a draw, 16 for a minor. In doing so, you, along with our help destroyed our force. It was shot. Slow and steady might be the way to go. But the longer our current russian opponents take to drive us back, we are refitting and building bunkers.

One more thing: roads that run over streams. Keith and I are blowing every one we can because without these stream bridges along the primary roads, the russian wheeled arty and moto rifle bridges will slow even more-slow to a virtual crawl. We were slow enough as the russians without having to deal with this problem in our game with lars and arkan, for they did not blow one stream bridge along the primary road network. Turns out they did not have to.

[Arkan]

"What am I missing? Could you explain this some more?"

You are missing :

-The LSSAH Panzer Regiment is released at day 11 or day 13, dont remember the exact date so we cant use it to defend anything before this time

-the so called Das Reich panzer "regiment" is only 3 companies strong. 2x PzIII + 1x PzIV. And the PzIV Co was encircled and destroyed

-Das Reich is no longer a valuable unit. Pz rgt is reduced to 2 PzIII Co. 1 Pzg rgt lost 4 Co and ALL the remaining Co have less than 50% strengh + high, generally higher than 200 fatigue. the second pzg rgt is a bit stronger and is the only Das Reich unit remaining on the front line.

-The road to Kharkov is totally open in the south-east and in the south. i was moving to the river crossings here our only reserve in the area, the Kharkov sicherung division...

-In the north you have the 40th army with 8 infantry divisions, 1 tank corps + 2 corps brigades, 3 ski brigades and lot of other shitty russian stuff. In front of that we have 1 inf division, 1 infantry regiment + a weak motorized rgt of fuhrer begleit (something like that). And of course the GD division who moved here to try to save the situation. But GD i also needed in the south of Kharkov and we had to make a choise.