Defensive Fire (lack of) - Sigh...

[Marquo]

Once again I watch a PBEM replay, aghast that a stack of 120 C morale, undisrupted T-34s sits stupidly on a hill, as wave after wave of panzers charges, fires and then backs away. The tankers do absolutely nothing despite excellent field of fire and a height advantage; they take 6 full volleys from the opponent and return one pathetic half hearted volley.

Yeah, I know the drill: double my pleasure and double my fun with manual defensive fire. Really? Why can't the game engine be programmed to fire on attackers just like I would if using MDF? It makes no sense to me; I thought computers were designed to make life easier, not harder. :conf:

Marquo :hissy:

[Volcano Man]

Wow, you had 120 tanks in a single stack? That must be something like 4 battalions in one hex. That seems like a fat juicy target to me. :o

In any case, unless the opponent sapped away fire with other moves then it sounds odd why they wouldn't fire back after repeated moves and firings of the enemy. I have had my share of luck myself with enemy not returning fire, but I generally try to sap fire if I can before I close in to help make that happen. This sounds like either: A) save/load B) skillful opponent sapping fire or C) unlucky. One of those three is true. ;) If A is suspected, turn on no save. If B or C, you can return the favor at some point. Personally, I generally try not to leave tanks up front when in the presence of enemy tanks if possible.

[Mr Grumpy]

Yes it can be extremely frustrating, but that is the major downside to the default turn set up with the AI controlling your reaction fire, you would hope over the course of a scenario the luck (or bad luck) would even itself out.

Get the NVKD to take the T34 commander away for a chat?

[Marquo]

Yes it can be extremely frustrating, but that is the major downside to the default turn set up with the AI controlling your reaction fire, you would hope over the course of a scenario the luck (or bad luck) would even itself out.

Get the NVKD to take the T34 commander away for a chat?

I am playing Ed's North_alt scenario, and the only way to deal with Axis armor seems to be to stack T-34s into killer stacks.

It's not the tankers who need a chat, rather the someone who knows the programming code and can fix this :)

Ed made a great points:

1. Luck: sure, but why can an attacker be sure to fire everytime on command but the defender can't be scripted to unload all his shots? At least makes it balanced: either both sides get to fire all of their shots, or put an element of chance into firing for both sides.

2. Dancing to draw fire: always possible but not in this case, and the limit on fire from a hex helps to a certain degree. BTW, in this millenium it should be failrly easy to code tank units the option to fire on certain targets or not: something like fire at all targets, fire only at units coded as armor/hard, etc.

3. Cheating: I do not suspect my opponent of cheating; and we all know that this is a festering issue so it really goes back to (1).

The original game with MDF is currently the only way out but is unwieldly and takes way too long. In this millenium and with the capability of modern PCs it should be fairly easy to take this unfair element of asymmetrical luck out of the game or make the issue of luck symmetrical. And no, it does not even itself out over the game, because one side is usually doing way more attacking than the other. This is yet another example of an unfair advantage being given to the attacker in a fairly straight forward IGOUGO game. And it could be fixed. :soap:

Marquo

[larsonney]

Then fix it my friend...

[Ricky B]

Questions withdrawn Marquo, unless a discussion is desired.

[Marquo]

How would you suggest implementing something that was close?

What happens with all the existing scenarios, all thousand or so not including VM and other user versions, to balance things with these new rules, if something is put together.

Of course the solution can't be perfect, but the enemy of good is perfect :rolleyes: If I had the skills, Larsonney, this is what I would do:

Create a menu of defensive opportunity fire shared between hard and soft targets. BTW, I have experience collaborating with AI programming specialists; I was not expected to know how to program, rather to have knowledge of the situation being modeled and how to communicate with programmers.

I opine that posting here may or may not lead to those with programming skills to consider the content and use their skills as they see fit. My comments are constructive observations of someone who has played these games since S'41 was first released - and I am extremely thankful that some ideas posted on this Forum have been translated into changes. Protection values for reinforcements and neutering AT guns ZOC are 2 examples of programming changes in response to posts here.

BTW, the ability of defensive fire needs to vary according to the year and doctrine. Soviet ability should be much different in 1943 at Kursk than at Smolensk in 1941.

As for all the scenarios and campaigns and balance, unless I have missed something, I do not beleive they are retested and recalibrated eveytime an improvement is programmed - and there has been a very long list during the last decade. Anyway, this should not prevent progrees in playability and realism :-)

Marquo

[Volcano Man]

Well, I know what you mean about requiring killer stacks to deal with German armor, but I suggest not staking them into one single hex. Try concentrating your tanks, but keeping them behind your infantry (IF enemy armor is known to be heavy in the area). If you have to concentrate your tanks, certainly do not do it in clear terrain, or try to do it when enemy takes have just crossed a stream or elevation so that it minimizes their ability to move up and shoot. But generally, the best solution for German armor in the _Alt scenario you speak of is constant bombardment with artillery, infantry in their path to force the need to assault, then stalk them in front and ambush them at a predetermined spot with a goal to move up and shoot and move back on your turn.

I generally like the current ADF behavior because it goes both ways. I mean, sometimes the AI doesn't fire when you want it to, but it also (thankfully) does not fire when you do not want the enemy to shoot at you. It is generally accepted that on your turn you trash the enemy, and on the enemy's turn they trash you -- a tit for tat arrangement. There are times when I get unlucky and blunderbuss into a kill zone. I am sure Rick or Foul (mostly the latter) can attest that I am guilty of blundering into a move-shoot that turns into a move-disruption, then sending more and more units in to help get it back out again.

If there was ever any change here, it would probably have to revolve around (as odd as it sounds) the American Civil War series, and it would need to be an Optional Rule. In that series there is a system where there is unlimited opportunity fire in ADF mode, but the opportunity fire is weak. When the enemy chooses to assault, the opportunity fire is at full strength. I believe also that the opportunity fire that occurs is proportional to the fire brought against the hex. In any case, those that think this is important -- mark it down as a topic of conversation at the next Tillercon. Who knows what could come of it.

[Marquo]

Well, I know what you mean about requiring killer stacks to deal with German armor, but I suggest not staking them into one single hex. Try concentrating your tanks, but keeping them behind your infantry. If you have to concentrate your tanks, certainly do not do it in clear terrain, or try to do it when enemy takes have just crossed a stream or elevation so that it minimizes their ability to move up and shoot. But generally, the best solution for German armor in the _Alt scenario you speak of is constant bombardment with artillery, infantry in their path to force the need to assault, then stalk them in front and ambush them at a predetermined spot with a goal to move up and shoot and move back on your turn.

This was a case desperation - the tanks had to keep a retreat lane open...I am sure you have been there before. :)

Where is the Tillercon this year?

Marquo

[Volcano Man]

Where is the Tillercon this year?

Not sure. I haven't heard when, if, or where at this point.