Japanese infantry guns

[Panzerjäger]

Hello fellow players,

I have a question. I play in the World of Flammes Tounament
the RS Game "Battling Bastards."
The Japanese have mortars , howitzers,
Infantry guns. Unfortunately, not the infantry guns
as displayed guns and they fire only on sight. These are the types of "Type 92 70mm Infantry Gun" and
" Year Type 41 75mm Inf.Gun". According to my books
a cannon shoots so far 2800 meters.
Is this a bug in the game ....???? :hissy:

Regards Peter

[von Manstein]

I think it has something to the way how Japs were using some types of guns. I'm not a specjalist of Pacific War but I've heard that Japs had some doctrine about using guns only in direct fire. So the max range may not be full used because of visibility.

[Panzerjäger]

Yes, the Japanese like to fight man to man
The gun can shoot over several fields.
That is a fact, 2800 m wide. Should it really only for
the direct fire on the next field to be considered.

Peter

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Peter, they are direct fire weapons?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_41_75_mm_Mountain_Gun

Sometimes you have to go on what the weapon was intended to do and not what you want it to do?

The Japanese had indirect fire weapons but these are not those. :smoke:



HSL

[K K Rossokolski]

I think it is an error in the OOB tables, rather than a bug; the error going back to the original Talonsoft game. I seem to remember a discussion on this way back when.
The current Japanese OOB has three infantry guns (June 1944 is taken).
Year 11 Type 37mm....disregard for this discussion.
Type 92 70mm Direct Fire only
Year 41 Type 75mm. Direct Fire only
I used Wiki and "Infantry Weapons of WWII" Ian Hogg The Military Book Club 1997 The sources show inconsistencies.
The Year 41 75mm was a Field arty weapon of 1906, later a Mountain arty and finally an infantry gun. Weighed ~ 1 ton elevation -8 to +16 deg (Wiki gives it much higher elevation) Hogg states held at regt level, used as infantry support normally firing over open sights (ie direct fire), max range ~12000 yds. A chum of mine formally an arty Ltcol believes this true,suggesting the gun configuration would indicate only limited indirect fire capability. So the OOB details are a reasonble if not wholly accurate representation. The gun probably had some indirect capability but was normally used in direct fire. It follows that this would have been of litte value in the jungle.
On the other hand, the Type 92 is wrong. Wiki states "As a result, the Army Technical Bureau developed a design which could be used either at low angle direct fire to take out fortified positions, machine gun nests and light armor, but also could be used at high angle indirect support fire" whereas Hogg, calling this the most common of Japanese infantry support weapons,describes it as a long range mortar in other words a primarily indirect fire weapon (elevation -4 to +75) with a short barrel,range ~3000yds. TO&E two guns per Bn, light at ~470 lb
Hogg states further the 70mm was used by the Chicoms for many years, lots being captured in Manchuria
Hope this helps. I will raise this with JP for a change next time RS is looked at.

[Panzerjäger]

Thank you for the good explanation. :bow:
In my book it is so similar. The Japanese used the weapon to "direct infantry support." Therefore is likely
the fault. Anyway, the gun shoots at sight
over several fields. So it is okay. ;)

Many regards

Peter

[Mike Abberton]

I am not an artillery man by any stretch of the imagination, but it would seem like indirect fire support would require more than just a weapon that is capable of high(er) trajectory fire. You'd also need trained gun crews, trained forward observers, a communication network, and large® ammo trains. That last item might be important since the Japanese were very supply and transport limited overall. High angle fire would still be desirable in a direct fire weapon as a way to shoot over fortifications, over other low cover, and into trenches.

So, it's at least possible that the CS device is limited to direct fire because that's how the Japanese used it, rather than based on its stats alone. I seem to remember some previous comments and/or discussion that implied this was the case.

Mike

[Hawk Kriegsman]

Hello All,

It is right in the unit description for the 70mm infantry gun. If you click on the unit and then hit the F2 key the unit description comes up. The last line of the 70mm description is: "Though capable of being used for indirect fire, Japanese doctrine limited the daitaiho to a direct fire role."

And the 75mm infantry gun description has at the end: ".....in 1936 it was turned over to the infantry who authorized four in each infantry regiment as a direct fire support weapon."

So there is no glitch or error in the OOB tables. It was a deliberate decision to limit these weapons to the way that the Japanese historically used them.

After doing a little looking around it seems that the type 92 was used primarily as a direct fire weapon at relatively close ranges.

I would say keep the gun as is. Making it an indirect fire wepon would actually reduce its effectiveness and value (remember indirect capable weapons cannot fire with low ammo, while direct fire only wweapons can).

Of course if you want to add a indirect capable one to the Chicoms OOB by all means do.

Thanx!

Hawk

[Jason Petho]

I would say keep the gun as is.

I'm inclined to agree.

Jason Petho

[Mr. Guberman]

re the Japanese 70mm (the 75 was hardly used): was a direct fire instrument. there were no optics (literally no), no FO's...not crap. all of my esteemed colegues agree and are well aware of that. DF only....

cheers

Curt