Engineers

[Dragoon]

Way back when the original Talonsoft East Front game first came out there were scale discussions/concerns back then so its not new by any means.The game has seen many changes/patches over the years thats for sure.Here we are 14 years later and its still a great game.I have faith the developers wont downgrade it into an arcade type of game.

Based on what I have heard over the years,from much more knowledgable people than myself,I'd say the game is based approximatley/roughly on the scale and not a hard n fast rule when you look at a units movement and maximum weapons range.

Dragoon

[Ashcloud]

Hello,

I dont think it would take long to punch a rough one way road (not clear cut the entire hex)through some woods for tracked vehicles and 4x4 jeep like vehicles.A guy who works for me cut a trail big enough to get my jeep 200 yards into the woods and I didnt need 4x4.I dont think it took him 2 hours with a chainsaw by himself.Not sure if they had chain saws back then but if they did a platoon of engineers could cut down some trees in a hurry...The only reason I brought it up is my opponent blew some bridges and I'm in for a long haul to get units anywhere,a road would be nice in one area....In another scenerio I finnaly got to use a mine laying engineer.So far in 12 turns he was able to lay 1 level1 mine field in a tottal game time of 72 minutes.

Other than that my buck is still on the ridge...

Cheers

Dragoon

The Germans didn't need chainsaws they had the local population to do the work.

[Kool Kat]

I have never had an issue with the 250 metre map scale. Of course, there are examples of maps where this is not always adhered to; the designer mentions it in the scenario notes or disregards it based on poor source material or disregards it out of artistic licence.

Do I think the weapons ranges are based on the 250 metre map scale? Yes, I do.

Thank you Jason for addressing and clarifying your views on the 250 meter hexes.

I do have an issue with the time scale. Do I think the game scale is 6 minutes? No. Based on the scenarios from the previous discussion, it is far from the standard.

Do I think that the numerous platoons used 6 minutes to calculate it's movement? No, I don't.

And I'm fine with the 6 minutes per turn being a approximation. The discrepancy between "actual" versus "in game" movement examples you cite could again be an approximation of these vehicles' movement rates? Maybe during its movement turn, the vehicle had to slow to move around some debris on a roadway... or avoid another stalled vehicle... or slow to observe movement off to its left, etc. I get it... and again I'm fine with that generalization.

Thanks for chiming in on this thread.

[Kool Kat]

There are many new units now that create more enjoyment of the game, if you don't like them, don't play those scenarios, play what you are happy with.

There are a great many new units that I enjoy too? Calvary that can fire while mounted... hidden anti-tank guns... Panzerfaust/Bazooka squads... .50 cal. halftracks... Green or Veteran designated platoons... etc. :)

I don't knock the purists, design and play to your hearts content, leave others to play their preferences.

Nobody is stopping anyone from playing CS as they prefer? And at least, some folks are staying away from putting labels on others? :chin:

Perhaps a vote would show the preferences better and cut the persistant views of a few?

Surely Peter, you are not advocating the silencing of other folks on this forum who don't hold your views? We are able to post our opinions and thoughts (within the forum guidelines) here... and also debate various issues - correct? You might not agree with me and I might not agree with your opinion... but we can still post them?

I think some are taking the scale a bit too seriously.

And there are other folks who don't care about scale. Yes. And your point is?

As was said before time and time again, some persistently argue the case for purity to the extent that they will brainwash people that their way is the only way and refute anyone else's views to the extreme.

Now, I do take exception to the term "brainwashing." Nobody is forcing you to believe any view or opinion held by anyone else? Nobody is stopping players from enjoying CS in their own way? You are free to either read or NOT read these comments? You are free to respond or NOT to posts in this thread? Please, let's dispense with the "brainwashing" terminology.

Well, that may cost me another 20% warning level but let's hope each member's views can be aired?

Looks like you were successful? Your views were posted? You were not banned? You were not singled out? And life goes on here at the Blitz?

[Glint]

Nice post KK, now maybe you could respond to the relevant matter of the thread and the valid points I made in my post - ''With regards to engineers cutting through woods etc, seem to remember a Sherman Culmin cutting through a bocage hedgerow within 6 minutes or, so we assume the 250 metre hex is full of hedgerows to cut through? Therefore, is an engineer platoon bridging a 40 foot river/stream or a 10 foot one? Who says an engineer platoon can't cut through a wooded area that maybe 250 metres thick or just a 250 meter area with woods in it?'' and - ''Also remember Jason stating once about woods. With the tools available, you can construct
light woods with 'orchards' where armour can move through easier than wooded hexes.
If you wish to restrict armour from moving through designated 'heavy woods' you can use
embankment hexsides etc, to prevent their' movement. So, there are many ways to utilise
tools to provide extras to the game. Extra units for scenario creation are all welcome as far as I am concerned, use them or ignore them, that's the other beauty of the beta teams efforts.'' Much more constructive to answer to those statements then just comment on what isn't relevant? The matters you refer to in your post merely do nothing for the debate, get to the meat of my post, the rest of my post is just my opinion and I'm entitled to express that same as you are.

[Von Earlmann]

VE grab your chain saw and meet with me at hex 80/44...I got some work for you.Pay is low but I have some captured vodka from the Eatern Front.All you can drink!!

Dragoon

PS Bring that halftrack too,we'll mount the chain saw on the front and go like heck!!

Dragoon

Generals,
This a true story. Back in the late 60s and early 70s I worked in the paper mills in Berlin NH which is right in the heart of the White Mtn National forest. One of the guys I worked with had a son who actually bought a WW II halftrack. He fixed it up and got it running and used it on the logging roads etc sort of a precurser to the atvs of today. He was driving in the park and came to a narrow place that was blocked by a tree. So, of course being a redneck type he had his trusty chainsaw in the halftrack and proceeded to cut the tree down. When he finished he looked up and there was a guy standing there who said "What are you doing?" To which he replied "How's that any of your business" The stranger then said "I am the park ranger" I laughed so hard I never did find out how much that tree cost him :-)

Moral of the story is halftracks and chainsaws my not always be your friends.

VE


[Edited by Scud to move response out of quoted area]

[Kool Kat]

Nice post KK,

Thank you.

now maybe you could respond to the relevant matter of the thread and the valid points I made in my post - ''With regards to engineers cutting through woods etc, seem to remember a Sherman Culmin cutting through a bocage hedgerow within 6 minutes or, so we assume the 250 metre hex is full of hedgerows to cut through?

I have no idea what you might have read or remembered from that reading? You "seem to remember" a fact? I have no idea how to respond? :chin:

Therefore, is an engineer platoon bridging a 40 foot river/stream or a 10 foot one? Who says an engineer platoon can't cut through a wooded area that maybe 250 metres thick or just a 250 meter area with woods in it?'' and - ''Also remember Jason stating once about woods. With the tools available, you can construct light woods with 'orchards' where armour can move through easier than wooded hexes. If you wish to restrict armour from moving through designated 'heavy woods' you can use
embankment hexsides etc, to prevent their' movement.

Again, I am at a loss on how to respond? Lots of hypothetical "what ifs" :chin:

So, there are many ways to utilise tools to provide extras to the game. Extra units for scenario creation are all welcome as far as I am concerned, use them or ignore them, that's the other beauty of the beta teams efforts.''

Agree. There are a lot of tools available for developers to utilize in the creation of their scenarios. There are also a lot of new units for these scenarios. I listed some of the new units that I like in my previous post. :)

Much more constructive to answer to those statements then just comment on what isn't relevant?

That's your opinion? I answered your statements to the best of my ability... but not sure how these comments advanced the debate in this thread?

The matters you refer to in your post merely do nothing for the debate, get to the meat of my post, the rest of my post is just my opinion and I'm entitled to express that same as you are.

Again, your opinion? IMO, the entirety of what you have posted is "your opinion?" I've shared my views? Nobody has once stated in this thread that you are NOT entitled to express your opinion in these forums? You have posted your views and options? I've posted mine? Others have posted their opinions? I don't see any problem or issue with how this debate is unfolding here? :chin:

[Glint]

As it seems someone's recollection does not count as 'proof needed' here goes -


''The invention of a hedge-breaching device is generally credited to Curtis G. Culin, a sergeant in the 2nd Armored Division's 102nd Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron. However, military historian Max Hastings notes that Culin was inspired by "a Tennessee hillbilly named Roberts",[5] who during a discussion about how the bocage could be overcome said "Why don't we get some saw teeth and put them on the front of the tank and cut through these hedges?" Rather than joining in the laughter that greeted this remark, Culin realised the idea's potential and put together a prototype tusk-like assembly welded to the front of a tank. In due course this was demonstrated to General Bradley, who "watched in awe as a hedgerow exploded ... to make way for the Sherman bursting through".[5] According to Hastings, Culin, "an honest man", attempted to give credit to Roberts but this was forgotten in the publicity surrounding the invention. Hastings concludes: "[Culin] became a very American kind of national hero".[5]''



As to 'hypothetical what-ifs' my statement about engineers, streams, woods etc., are not hypothetical,they are ways others may perceive the operations that can be carried out within the scale? Your answer to it is just ignoring the question raised, not debating it?

[Scud]

Guys,

This is not a place to argue, but to debate. I haven't read much new in this debate, either. Please keep personal attacks out of it. Everyone's opinion is their own and everyone is welcome to their own opinion.

Please step back and take a breather and come back in if/when you have something to add and can say it politely.

Thanks,
Dave

[Dragoon]

As the game is now all movable units,wheeled or tracked or on foot can enter one woods hex with 65 action points.They can move through forest hex's one hex per turn with the exception of a double timed foot unit which can at times go two hex's.Its rough going yes I understand that part and why it costs 65 points to enter,takes more fuel,effort etc....

What I was thinking when I asked if an Engineer unit could make a "rough road" through the hex from one side to the other isnt a dirt road as the game has now but maybe a unit could move through the new rough road/trail paying 30 action points instead of 65 kind of thing.Would simulate the Engineers smoothing out the rough going with cutting trees and using some to smooth out rough bumps,holes kind of thing.Maybe its simulated with each unit now I dont know, hard to imagine a truck going through a full forest hex if the hex is completely full of trees.

Cheers

Dragoon