Good and Bad Scenarios

[Gordons HQ]

Just a thought here on scenario design, what if you wanted to design a Historical scenario and you know it would not be balanced as many historic battles were not balanced.
The scenario would not play well in PBEM form but you were not designing it specifically for that. You were in fact designing it for other members who now and again like to try there hand against the AI and see if they could do better than what historically happened in the battle, with the same forces at their disposal.
I believe this is a game for all members and I'm sure many like to try their hand at this sort of thing after all War is War and there's nothing fair in love and war as they say like:- balance.
My Question is:- Would this scenario then have to be loaded for H2H testing as it is sure to be rubbished as unbalanced. In which case, is it the case that it would not be accepted and the members it was aimed at would not get a chance to try this out.
Just food for thought I would say.

Gordon

[Kool Kat]

My Question is:- Would this scenario then have to be loaded for H2H testing as it is sure to be rubbished as unbalanced. In which case, is it the case that it would not be accepted and the members it was aimed at would not get a chance to try this out.

I can't think of any reason why a "historical" scenario could not go through the H2H process? :chin:

The scenario developer could emphasize that the depicted battle is "historical"... and as a consequence... "unbalanced"... so play testers would be urged to NOT evaluate "balance"... and in the "balance" evaluation category, maybe rate it as a "8"?

Another possibility... adjust the victory conditions so that both sides had "some" chance of either a "Draw" or "Minor Victory?" So, if "historically", a specific side captured an objective during that battle... maybe if the defender can retain that objective... with minimum casualties... a "Draw" or "Minor Victory" is possible?

Thinking out loud here? :chin:

I believe that the majority of "historical" scenarios are tested with the developers' "regular" opponents... and than uploaded into the dbase after a few rounds of play testing?

[Scud]

The H2H area doesn't require balance as the only requirement for obtaining H2H approval. I can see where a great historical unbalanced scenario would have the ability to gain H2H status, provided the play testers rate it high enough. I'd hope a mention of it's "unbalance-by-design" would be added to the description, though, if only to prevent misunderstanding.

I agree that balance can be obtained by shifting victory conditions, but doesn't that alter the history? So maybe, "based on actual events" or "victory conditions altered for playability" could be added to the descriptions?

...and as Ed mentioned, it's only historical at setup, once the players start moving, history goes out the window.

Just as an aside, I vaguely recall a civil war game where you could have the game play both sides of historical battles and it would reenact how they went down. Great educational piece. Be nice if the CS AI could do that. Ha...dream on?

Dave

[Glint]

Can I clarify here, is H2H an option to be used if designers want their scenarios 'endorsed' or
do all scenario designers have to have H2H playtest the scenario before it can be uploaded to
the database?
Following recent developements, I'm a bit bewildered!

[Scud]

In your case, it wasn't a H2H issue, it was an issue of uploading your scenarios to the Blitz database (again, not H2H), play-testing with a friend, taking the ladder points and then deleting the scenario. It was considered unfair .

If you want to reupload them to the database, then I'd consider the matter closed. Up to you, but make sure you let Toni and Darran know ASAP.

Dave

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Can I clarify here, is H2H an option to be used if designers want their scenarios 'endorsed' or do all scenario designers have to have H2H playtest the scenario before it can be uploaded to the database?
Following recent developements, I'm a bit bewildered!

H2H = Head to Head = Human to Human, ie, PBEM, one "head" playing against another "head". :smoke:

Scenarios going through the H2H process are not meant for play versus the AI. Endorsed/approved H2H scenarios have been found to be balanced and fun when played versus a human opponent, mostly by players who take the testing seriously and not rubber stamping their friends scenarios.

I did not say that scenarios that are historical cannot be balanced. But, that often, they are made less fun to reach a score balance versus a human.

The Ladder is meant as competitive play versus other human opponents. I don't think it was ever intended for testing scenarios that others cannot play. Nor, should it be used to report games versus the AI.

I'm trying to answer both your concerns and that of GordonsHQ.

PBEM is not play versus the AI, nor should PBEM be for unbalanced historical scenarios?

I, personally, cannot understand the confusion? Maybe I have it wrong, but it was always thought to be that way. :dunno:
Until you and GordonsHQ brought it up.
Members have always been able to upload their scenarios (good or bad) into the dBASE for others to play.
Even if tested outside the H2H system and found to be balanced, they do not have the privilege to display them as H2H "approved" unless they have gone through the testing process.



HSL

[Gordons HQ]

HSL, Thanks OK that's fine and answers my query re uploading of scenario's and as I understand it now they do not then have to go to H2H for playtesting.
Re scenario's good or bad, I do think there is a place for Historical scenario's however bad they play out in H2H form and the challenge is to try to improve on history with the forces at your disposal. I believe it then becomes a study in military history rather than just a game.
But of course that's for the individual to choose what course he wishes to take and therefore all types of games should if possible be freely available to all.

Gordon

[Kool Kat]

Can I clarify here, is H2H an option to be used if designers want their scenarios 'endorsed' or
do all scenario designers have to have H2H playtest the scenario before it can be uploaded to
the database?
Following recent developements, I'm a bit bewildered!

For folks who are "bewildered" on the H2H process, the following quote is from the H2H Section:

"The Purpose of H2H Scenario Testing Area is to play test and critique scenarios created by members of the Blitz. The Blitz has many ladders and this section exists to provide support to scenario designers across the wide spectrum of games supported at The Blitz. A completed, tested and balanced scenario ultimately helps the community by adding to the list of available, challenging and entertaining scenarios.

The H2H Scenario Testing Area allows scenario designers and play testers to come together to approve new scenarios. Scenario designers can post their new scenarios here and players can help test these scenarios in beta form, assisting the designers by providing feedback in the form of test reports. Testers gain bonus ladder points for play testing scenarios and reporting on the game. Once a scenario attains the required score to become approved and is moved to the approved list the designer also receives bonus ladder points.

All scenarios which have successfully completed testing will be listed on the appropriate game's ladder and can be reported. Downloading the games is done through the Approved Scenarios link below.

Only scenarios found to be worthy achieve the Blitz H2H Approved status."

Also, there is detailed information found in the "Designer FAQ" and "Testing FAQ" sub-sections that covers both the scenario designer's and test players responsibilities.

IMO, the "heart" of the Blitz gaming ladders are balanced and entertaining scenarios developed for human PBeM matches.

[Glint]

Thanks for clarifying that only, I've been told my scenarios MUST go through the H2H section but I never saw that ever stated on the forum before and always thought H2H was an OPTION for designers to use?
I would like to point out that, ladder points have never been my priority. This whole issue seems to be a misunderstanding by some. I designed some large scenarios, played them with someone, not against the A1, and reported the result. The scenarios were then removed because I felt they needed improvements. Never have I tried to bend any rules or gain any gains on the ladder.
I have never seen anything in the forum that has shown I'm doing anything wrong and indeed, was told I haven't breached any rules?
By all means I would upload the scenarios as they are for other members but felt they would only clutter the database with unworthy scenarios.
One game took a year to play and I don't find any problem/crime committed by reporting the result?
I will however refuse to be told my scenarios must be put through H2H for playtesting and uploaded for everyone with the threat of dismissal from the Blitz if I fail to do so and Dave, I've only heard from Antoni, not Darran. It seems my ban won't be over the scenarios but because I dare argue my case with the moderators?
No matter what some may think, I've spent many years on this site and 'cheating' has never been my way and I vehemently deny any accusations to such.
Anyway, whilst this post remains in view, I would just like to defend my status before I become a shadow player, cos I can't be bothered to waste my time anymore.

[Scud]

Thanks for clarifying that only, I've been told my scenarios MUST go through the H2H section but I never saw that ever stated on the forum before?

Then, yes, there was a misunderstanding. Reupload those scenarios you reported on the ladder for points (again, not H2H) so that other players may play them as well, and all's well.

To reiterate, any designer may post to the general database. Even a work-in-progress. The scenario does not have to have been play-tested. Memebrs wishing to play these custom scenarios will play them and balance will eventually be established by win/loss and number of times played. This area, however, is not to be used as a personal play-test area, where the scenario is subsequently removed. That kind of play test does not need the Blitz, but can be done with your usual friends/opponents.

H2H is a unique area on the Blitz and shouldn't have been confused with your issue, Peter.

Let me know either here or privately when you've finished the upload and I'll advise Toni and Darran.

Dave