A map of beauty is...

[Hobbes]

For the scenarios I have made for CS and the AGEOD WiA games I spend far longer testing than creating the scenario. Maybe a H2H process is the way to go in order to get more scenarios out there. I just find it very difficult to release scenarios until I am very happy with the balance and playability - with AGEOD games there is the added problem of finding script bugs.

Also the method of rating scenarios here is a great way of understanding how balanced a scenario is for PBEM - although I doubt many designers ever go back to rebalance a scenario if the ratings show it to be too one sided. Anyone ever do that?
Cheers, Chris

[Kool Kat]

For the scenarios I have made for CS and the AGEOD WiA games I spend far longer testing than creating the scenario. Maybe a H2H process is the way to go in order to get more scenarios out there. I just find it very difficult to release scenarios until I am very happy with the balance and playability - with AGEOD games there is the added problem of finding script bugs.

Also the method of rating scenarios here is a great way of understanding how balanced a scenario is for PBEM - although I doubt many designers ever go back to rebalance a scenario if the ratings show it to be too one sided. Anyone ever do that?
Cheers, Chris

I agree Chris! I think it is a rare occurrence for a scenario to be balanced in a first round of testing... regardless if the scenario is taken through the H2H process or not.

My Rising Sun "Sorrow on Saipan" scenario, that is currently under development in the H2H Section, is a good example of the difficulty of achieving balance. Here is a relatively small battle (Complexity 4), but after a dozen test games (counting both the games prior to uploading it into H2H + H2H testing)... two revisions... the Japanese are still over classed by the American Marines... and suffer a Minor to Major Defeat in each game! Balance can be a difficult benchmark to reach... but necessary (in most cases) if developers want their creations to be played in ladder competition.

It would be interesting to know if developers go through any "re-balance" exercises after their scenarios have been uploaded into the db and balance issues arise after repeated play?

[K K Rossokolski]

I have had little faith in the H2H process in the past. My prime object is to get the history right, and I put a lot of effort into this. I have taken offence to be criticised by someone who clearly has no idea what he is talking about. I recall also that years ago it was deemed acceptable for boot campers to play as testers. No thank you.
That said, it is clear that new management is working hard to get H2H right, and I congratulate Mike for what he has achieved. The major problem, perhaps insoluble, is testing of big and long scens. One of the great advances for our old game is the effect of increasing computer power..once a BN/Bde size game, we can now do Army groups. And some huge maps..... I am slowly working on a Gazala map with 320000 hexes to fill. About 140k to go.
How does one test such a game when (if?) it's finished?
Enough of the ramblings. I just posted a little Korea scen in H2H. Night, the Greek battalion holding a hill against a PLA regiment.

[Kool Kat]

That said, it is clear that new management is working hard to get H2H right, and I congratulate Mike for what he has achieved. The major problem, perhaps insoluble, is testing of big and long scens. One of the great advances for our old game is the effect of increasing computer power..once a BN/Bde size game, we can now do Army groups. And some huge maps..... I am slowly working on a Gazala map with 320000 hexes to fill. About 140k to go.
How does one test such a game when (if?) it's finished?

Thank you Rod for your words of encouragement! :)

I agree with you that the testing of both large... and "super" large scenarios... are not appropriate for the H2H Section. The H2H Section has a finite number of testing slots (currently expanded to 15 to accommodate Korean Mod scenarios)... but to occupy slots with designs that may well take over a year to test... limits the available space for other developers who wish to take their creations through these doors.

So... for both large and "super" large (e.g. Army group) scenarios... any testing needs to be done "off line" with the developer utilizing a small and dedicated play tester group... who fully understand the time commitment and effort required... to move these "mega" creations forward.

One suggestion... you could leverage the criteria utilized within the H2H reports.... balance, enjoyment, briefing, victory conditions, etc... to create your own "scoring sheets" that could be used to evaluate the scenarios? It would be more of a "manual" process than the H2H Report submissions... but you could capture test player feedback and comments?

[Huib Versloot]

It would be interesting to know if developers go through any "re-balance" exercises after their scenarios have been uploaded into the db and balance issues arise after repeated play?

I do that sometimes, also with my scenarios that did go through H2H section gloriously and seemed balanced enough until they got played a # of times for the ladder.
The thing for me is that during times I'm interested in CS, it is better to spit out as many new scenarios as I can and not to lose too much time with testing as my interest in CS is always temporarily.
The other thing is that IMO players are too subjective, and too mixed in game skills to test thoroughly on balance (unless you really screwed up the scn). Research, OOB, map and plain design mistakes I don't really make anymore.
Ofcourse I do one or two testruns, mostly against Rod, Jason or David Galster after I already played the scn as "hotseat" against myself. Testing against AI is useless, unless you include some good parameters for play against AI.

That doesn't mean I won't ever post a scn in H2H anymore. I might do that again and see what happens.
Huib

[Feldgeneral Hoth]

Sure...nice map, Huib.

We really know how many time is spent in a good map. I like to play on a veritable battleground :rolleyes2:

(Totalize.map) This is a nice map too, al least it's one of my favourites
http://usuaris.tinet.cat/jmrando/Infoscn...shinfo.htm

Cheers

[Crossroads]

Map makers of the world unite!

This thread actually motivated me to finalise the conversion of my Kuuterselka scenario to using new units from my Lapland mod.

That hopefully out of way, I hope the inspiration continues forward for finalising my Vuoksi Bridgehead scenario, with new units as well.

It has a a beast of a map as well, all with help of contemporary maps and Google Earth.

The thing for me is that during times I'm interested in CS, it is better to spit out as many new scenarios as I can and not to lose too much time with testing as my interest in CS is always temporarily.

I hear you... I've had that historical scenario 80% completed for a year now...

[Hobbes]

I have had little faith in the H2H process in the past. My prime object is to get the history right, and I put a lot of effort into this. I have taken offence to be criticised by someone who clearly has no idea what he is talking about. I recall also that years ago it was deemed acceptable for boot campers to play as testers. No thank you.
That said, it is clear that new management is working hard to get H2H right, and I congratulate Mike for what he has achieved. The major problem, perhaps insoluble, is testing of big and long scens. One of the great advances for our old game is the effect of increasing computer power..once a BN/Bde size game, we can now do Army groups. And some huge maps..... I am slowly working on a Gazala map with 320000 hexes to fill. About 140k to go.
How does one test such a game when (if?) it's finished?
Enough of the ramblings. I just posted a little Korea scen in H2H. Night, the Greek battalion holding a hill against a PLA regiment.

I had an idea in mind to make individual scenarios for the first few days of the British and Canadian Normandy landings and paratroop drops and then combine them into one huge scenario (for the maps at least). I made Hell's Corner 5 years ago and that was as far as I got. Not sure who would have had time to play the scenario if I had actually managed to do it. Good luck with the Gazala map - it will be I'm sure a thing of beauty - I may need to get myself into an open prison to find the time to play the scenario though.


Cheers, Chris