Luftwaffe losses in 1940

[jonnymacbrown]

"So maybe it comes out at 50 instead, that works okay for me - most players avoid high risk attacks, unlike historical, so I expect losses to run a bit less."

But there aren't any high-risk attacks. The French have, I believe, three 75 mm AA units that throw up an 11-3 barrage. Neet units and they occasionally shoot down a plane but not many. I'm just wondering right now what Luftwaffe bomber losses were in the operation.? The sources say the Luftwaffe lost 35%-40% of it's strength in the operation; which also means until French surrender in June. What were the losses in the 10-12 days we play in our campaign battles? All I know is the Luftwaffe ends these campaigns with about the same strength as it starts with. Is that an accurate simulation? jonny

Starting to get some information: http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.php?p...er-holland

Luftwaffe lost 17 bombers over Holland May 10-May 16.

[jonnymacbrown]

Jonny,

My response was directly in answer to JDR Dragoon's point (with your agreement) that air is usually unchanged during a game. It's obvious that the point has now changed to an expectation that all scenario design be of a sufficient high standard to satisfy all the grogs out there! (Joke!)

And at this point I will exit this conversation because as Rick says - What's the issue???

Gee David, the issue is a military organization suffering 40% losses, which is huge, and it doesn't seem to be reflected in the game. I was shocked to learn it. The Luftwaffe did the job in France but at quite a cost. Did they only lose c. 100 ground attack aircraft out of the 1,500-2000 or so that they did lose? I guess there is no way of knowing without consulting the archives which would be another monumental task. I don't want to tinker with the game on this without some more input. The Luftwaffe is a real problem for the French in the game; they just don't wear down at all. jonny :)

[jonnymacbrown]

Heavy German losses on May 10-11:
"The first German air strikes against the Belgians and Dutch virtually eliminated their air forces as possible factors in the campaign; the British and French also suffered heavy aircraft losses on the ground and in the air. But the first day's operations did not come lightly. On May 10, the Germans lost 83 aircraft (not including Ju 52's), including 47 bombers and 25 fighters, equaling the worst losses for a day in the Battle of Britain. On the following day, the Germans lost a further 42 aircraft, including 22 bombers, 8 dive bombers, and 10 fighters."

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/AAF-...ffe-2.html
page 37

In the Campaign, bomber losses due to enemy action were 438 + 89 Stukas for a total of 527 bombers due to enemy action alone, not counting accidents.
Total bomber/Stuka losses were 643 aircraft.
Page 40

[Ricky B]

Okay, well I agree with the thought about losses not represented in the game having an impact on air strength in game - that is something that has never come up before, or if so is so buried in comments as in this threat that the message was lost. I thought the issue here was "why doesn't the enemy lose planes at a historical rate so I can get a lot of VPs from them" rather than "why do the German air units not drop in strength during the battle". Is that a fair summary of the issue?

Enough with numbers, outside of quantifying the losses. So the Germans lost around 600 bombers in 6 weeks, or about 100 per week, on average. In 1940, the Germans built approximately 3500 bombers, including Stukas, or nearly 300 per month, or 450 during the time period of the French campaign. So net loss, approximately 150 bombers. They had a reserve of planes, but no idea how large.

Jonny - what is the ratio of bombers present in the campaign game to the total bomber numbers you have dug out? I don't have time to check, but come up with that and maybe allocate that ratio of strength to the losses and see what the net losses would be for the full 6 weeks, then maybe take half that to represent the heavier fighting during this campaign period than later on.

Just a way of seeing what possible impact the losses were. Ultimately, being able to see what the ground attack missions launched by the Luftwaffe would be the most effective method of determining how losses and fatigue changed the number of missions during the battle, but I can't find anything on that.

Anyway, once the actual impact is determined, maybe a solution could be determined - I like a "breakdown" factor as used for tanks/vehicles, but I will be that after analyzing things as above it will be quite a bit less than you think. Definitely not 40% as the Germans did have replacement planes coming into action, and had pilots ready also.

Rick

[jonnymacbrown]

"I thought the issue here was "why doesn't the enemy lose planes at a historical rate so I can get a lot of VPs from them" rather than "why do the German air units not drop in strength during the battle". Is that a fair summary of the issue?"

Yes that is the issue.

I'll work on getting you some numbers to work with. jonny

[FM WarB]

The Luftwaffe causes havoc with interdiction. Do they lose any planes doing it?

[Ricky B]

No, losses to that aren't part of the game as I would guess you already know. What is your point with the question? It would take some selling but having attrition to air units in the game - which are supposed to be different units from those carrying out interdiction but is based on units similar to game units - would result in weaker interdiction. Or do you want something besides what jonny wants? Try to be a bit more specific in what you want and maybe we can discuss it!

I have played a couple of France 40 campaigns and don't recall interdiction causing too much havoc, but if you feel it is too much, drop the level. I have done that in games with my opponent's agreement, including VM's excellent Jihad scenario for ME 67, as it made that specific scenario impossible for the Arabs to win.

[jonnymacbrown]

"I have played a couple of France 40 campaigns and don't recall interdiction causing too much havoc."

The problem with interdiction comes with the German level bombers designated 'carpet' bombers in V-mods; and there are a lot of them: Normal programmed air interdiction makes a not too powerful occasional hit on a unit in travel mode or RR mode. That then gives the German player a clue as to where a column is and the German may then recon the area and spot the units in column: and then send in hundreds of the carpet bombers with devastating effect! In the older scenarios, when Luftwaffe units were not carpet bombers, the German player couldn't do this. However, in the 1940 campaign, French units were forced to move along roads and RR at night because the Luftwaffe did indeed control the skies; so this feature of the game is probably very realistic. I guess the level bombers were made into 'carpet' bombers to reduce the power of German ground attack aircraft and it did so. But the side-effect was to make der Luftwaffe an extremely powerful interdiction force operating on two separate phases: the 1st being the normal programmed interdiction which is now long-range recon, and then the mind-blowing follow up with close air recon followed by carpet bombers. Still though, the problem is that there is no let-up; in that der Luftwaffe fundamentally doesn't lose any inherent strength anywhere along the line, ever.
jonny

[JDR Dragoon]

Just to follow up on this thread, now that I have the time to post again:

Making air units unavailable:
-Serves the overall purpose. The problem is that this affects entire squadrons/strike packages. Another problem is timing: At just which point does a given squadron become unavailable due to overall losses and exactly which squadron will become unavailable due to this? I guess one could randomize it, but this still leaves the problem that a player might arbitrarily see his most powerful strike missions in HA/SA/Quality terms being removed wholesale.

Higher AA values:
-Works. The only problem is, that this will not affect reconnaisance missions (only Heavy AA does). Another problem is, that non-concentrated units are still vulnerable.

An observation:
Funnily enough most of the on-map SAMs in user-made scenarios of the MC series are not classed as Heavy AA, thus leaving them unable to fire at recon planes.

[Narwan]

The confusion about available allied air stems from the reorganisation taking place within the french air force at the time of the attack. The new fighters had been delayed because of some last minute production issues; the older fighter (MS406 mainly) were about to be phased out but had to be kept in service longer than expected. Unfortunatley their production lines had already been discontinued which a shortage of spares etc quickly occured. Also, pilots were also being (re)trained on the new types. Something similar was happing with the bomber force although on a smaller scale. All in all, the german attack couldn't have come at a worst time for the french air force. Two months later and it would have been a very different picture indeed.
The brits too were in the process of rapidly increasing their strength in the air.

As it was, the germans were actually losing the air war in the may-june 40 campaign. Yeah, I know, sounds like blasphemy but it was true. The french air force for example was stronger in the second half of the campaing than it was in the first (the new models were being put into service in substantail numbers). The french were getting stronger while the germans were getting weaker. The allies were also outproducing the germans in aircraft and were winning the 'attrition' battle. They didn't realise it at the time though.
Just look at the battle of britain a couple of months later, the UK on its own brought the Luftwaffe to its knees. Just think about what would have happened if the french numbers would have been added. That gives you a rough idea of the state of affairs at the second half of the campaign of may-june 1940. It also goes a long way into explaining why the germans suffered such heavy losses. The myth of complete dominance in the sky by the germans is exactly that, a myth. Fueled by stories by) ground forces being subjected to german air attacks. To them is looked as if the germans were dominant, a view which was strengthed by the fact that both the french and british had given priority to fighters and heavy bombers while the germans had given priority to tactical bombers. That latter is the most visible to ground forces.