WF: Breakout at Benicourt - Balance Issues?

[Hawk Kriegsman]

Hello All,

I will weigh in here since I help Mike a lot with this one and some of what you see where based on my suggestions.

I have played both sides numerous times and I can tell you this scenarios is balanced. Both sides can win big or lose big. It all depends on the players.

With all due respect to all players, some of the play test results are just meaningless, because testers of vastly different skill levels tested together. I can tell you that if I tested a scenario with Tiger 88 it would be very hard for me to guage the balance. Tiger 88 is an elite player I am not. The testing results will be skewed. For testing results to have any merit players of equal skill level should be testing the scenario. Additionally the each player needs to play both sides of the test scenario to truly be able to rate its balance.

One of the reasons I will not test scenarios with my buddy mussolini is that I am a better player than he is. It would do the designer a disservice as I am more likely than not to beat him on either side of a scenario. Very little can be gleaned from that.

When I see better players beating weaker players in a sceanrio and then say the scenario is not balance it makes me laugh. It is not the scenarios that are unbalanced it is the players who are.

Huib is spot on. Time and statistics will tell if a scenario is truly balanced.

And this scenario is balanced.

Thanx!

Hawk

[Kool Kat]

Thanks Erik!

BTW... I've been editing all the posts in this thread... changing the incorrect spelling of "Benicort" to the correct spelling "Benicourt." Nothing else has been changed in anyone's post. That's all! Sorry, it's the English Major in me! :)

[Big Ivan]

Kool Kat,

I find that Engineers like me don't understand English language guys all that much sometimes. Don't worry, it's not the fault of the English guys!!

Most engineers are too bust sucking down science, being over worked and just darn tired to pay anything but minimal attention to the English language and spelling...

Best always!

Ivan the Big:smoke2:

[Kool Kat]

Kool Kat,

I find that Engineers like me don't understand English language guys all that much sometimes. Don't worry, it's not the fault of the English guys!!

Most engineers are too bust sucking down science, being over worked and just darn tired to pay anything but minimal attention to the English language and spelling...

Best always!

Ivan the Big:smoke2:

Hey John:

It's interesting what folks pay attention to... while other things just slide by?

We stay so darn busy these days... that sometimes it's a minor miracle we can stay focused on a single task for more than a few minutes! dizzy

At least we can all claim being focused on CS!

Keep those slide rulers busy John! ;)

[Big Ivan]

Very very true words KK!

Life seems like a big catchup and a mega rat race but CS is the relaxing moment!

ItB

[Cam]

I played this one as Allied and have no issues with balance. I believe it came down to tactics, which is how it should be. The way I figure it..... why drive your troops down the main paved road,when you can take the wooded scenic route and picnic on a forested hill :)
Cam

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Here are some of the raw stats:

John Given
Wins 53 Losses 11 Draws 12 Win % .776 Axis Major Victory -- Slightly Allies

Boisforas
Wins 52 Losses 203 Draws 28 Win % .233 ELO 1882

_____________________________________________________

Herr Straßen Läufer
Wins 526 Losses 448 Draws 405 Win % .528 ELO 2066 Axis Major Loss -- Totally Allies

Tiger 88
Wins 560 Losses 161 Draws 118 Win % .737
_____________________________________________________

Cam
Wins 91 Losses 134 Draws 44 Win % .420 Allies Major Victory -- Well Balanced

Deutscher Landser
Wins 47 Losses 22 Draws 19 Win % .642

_____________________________________________________

Laza
Wins 429 Losses 357 Draws 177 Win % .537 ELO 1986 Axis Major Victory

Sir Killalot
Wins 101 Losses 133 Draws 43 Win % .442 ELO 1993

_____________________________________________________

Panzerjaeger
Wins 84 Losses 130 Draws 47 Win % .411 ELO 1986 Axis Minor Loss

Kai
Wins 90 Losses 92 Draws 32 Win % .495 ELO 2047 (possibly slightly pro Allies?)

_____________________________________________________

Hawk Kriegsman
Wins 832 Losses 491 Draws 244 Win % .608 ELO 2062 *

Kool Kat
Wins 61 Losses 52 Draws 24 Win % .532 ELO 2048 * #

*Playtesters who found this balanced.
# Scenario designer.
_____________________________________________________

I do not believe that it is a matter of tactics. But, that is not a statistical issue. I did react to Steve's taking his force around the flank and found the German forces quite unable to stop the overwhelming Allied armored force supported by mobile SP's and infantry.
I think the scenario might have been more designed for balance if the Allies were forced to go into the heart of the German defense.

I'd be able to know & see more if Panzerjaeger, Kai, Sir Killalot, Laza, Deutscher Landser, & Tiger 88 would make their comments.

Winning a major victory as Allies, against an equal or superior opponent, and then saying it is well balanced may be stretching it a bit. But, that is my personal opinion.
For balance sake, hypothetically, could Cam play the Germans versus Deutscher Landser and win as the Germans? I think not. But, hypothetically, if he did win as Germans, I would say it would then be more balanced than I first thought it is, at this moment.

Note; ELO scores are from the 2011 ladder, all other stats are from "since the beginning" in the players profile (ELO scores are not included in a members profile). I posted this before completing all the research (thus, some of the ELO's are not included above). And, for clarity sake, I am not a fan of ELO as a measurement, but others are so I included them.



HSL

PS. Please don't read this as an attack against any one member. I am trying to have a "gentlemanly" discussion on a topic using stats and not feelings. Remember the Allies win this more than they lose it, and much more so when the statistically superior opponent is the Allies?

[Kai]

Hi all,

played this one against Panzerjaeger (Peter), one of my long time opponents. I think we´re player of equal skills..
Found the main road well guarded and attacked over the flank. Too many allied armor for the germans. It was fun to play but from my point of view very, very hard for the axis side.

Regards,
Kai

[Cam]

Another way to look at things, which the stats don't show, is how the scenario was played. For instance EA on or off. I recently played a scenario with EA on that changed everything ! Also I pretty much played Benicourt blind, as did my opponent.
For thought
Cam

[Kool Kat]

Winning a major victory as Allies, against an equal or superior opponent, and then saying it is well balanced may be stretching it a bit. But, that is my personal opinion.

Everyone who has participated in this thread has stated their personal opinion? Ed, I consider your statements your opinion too. Not necessarily right... or wrong... but certainly your opinion.

IMO, as the designer of this scenario, I think it is safe to state that there needs to be more completed games before conclusions may be drawn on its overall balance.

PS. Please don't read this as an attack against any one member. I am trying to have a "gentlemanly" discussion on a topic using stats and not feelings. Remember the Allies win this more than they lose it, and much more so when the statistically superior opponent is the Allies?

Nobody has accused anyone of "attacks" in this thread? Again, we are referencing a scenario that has ONLY 5 recorded games (3x Allied wins / 2 Axis wins). IMO, more games need to be played before ANY conclusions on balance can be made.