Collateral hexes & asymmetric victory

Fast Heinz · 12-17-2012, 02:57 AM,

Playing Modern War and having a hard time wraping my head around the idea of collateral hexes. Would love an explanation with examples. I get (I think) the rule. I am having a hard time understanding just how it works & why it was introduced. Same with asymmetric victory & how it differs from the symmetric (cumulative vs. not). Appreciate the response.

gabeeg · 12-18-2012, 03:29 AM,

The collateral hexes are there to simulate harm to non-combatants or assets/structures that you do not want to damage. So for example a civilian apartment complex may be a collateral hex and if you pound it with arty or fire into it you will either lose point or your opponent will gain points (depending on how the scenario designer set it up).

Asymmetric scoring is usually used when one side in the game is at a significant disadvantage. In that case the disadvantaged side gets more points (the points can be cumilative per turn vs. just a one shot point total for a victory hex) for a particular victory hex than the advantaged side. I believe that is also applicable for points based on kills but I am not sure on that one. How the points are generated are probably up the the scenario designer I imagine but basically in asymmetrical scoring the weaker side gets more points for the same victory hexes or kill points, that way they have a fairer chance at winning the scenario. I have not played many...if any so have no real experience with this so may have some of the details incorrect.

TheBigRedOne · (This post was last modified: 12-19-2012, 03:37 AM by TheBigRedOne.)

The Asymmetric Scoring is somewhat complicated to describe, at least for me. It's a cumulative type of scoring that gives the disadvantaged side more of a chance to 'win' if it manages to keep its own casualties low, but inflict damage on the 'superior' side or hold onto an objective over the course of the game. You earn victory points after each turn, which starts to add up quickly over the course of a scenario.

In reality, it's a tough system to get to work well. When Modern War was in development, Joao tried to utilize this type of scoring system at first, but we all struggled to get results that seemed to make sense while we were testing the scenarios. He reverted back to the standard type of scoring which ended up working out for the best.

I'm not sure I've seen AS used effectively so I could point out as a model to follow if trying to craft scenarios around it.

Dog Soldier · 12-19-2012, 05:28 AM,

I agree with TheBigRedOne that AS is tough to apply from a design POV. Where it might shine is in a situation to simulate a fighting withdrawal where slowing the enemy advance, minimizing your own losses and denying objectives as long as possible are the defensive player's goals.

The enemy has overwhelming superiority. Thus the option to delay them, not stop them at this time is command's choice. In SB you are given that mission by command. Buy time.

AS can be applied to this situation to give the defending player a real chance to 'win'.
There may be other applications of AS in the SB series. This one readily comes to mind.

Dog Soldier

Jeff Conner · 12-19-2012, 11:59 PM,

The collataral hexes are hard to use also. I tried to include them in a couple of Falkland scenarios, but it appeared that the number of victory points given for firing into the hex was either random or determined by something I couldn't figure out. Consequently, it wasn't possible to try and balance the scenarios and I gave up on the idea. I like both of the ideas, however. I may try and design an asymetrical scenario, but I'll have to have a better idea of how it works than I do now.

Jeff

TheBigRedOne · 12-20-2012, 03:15 AM,

(12-19-2012, 11:59 PM)Jeff Conner Wrote: The collataral hexes are hard to use also. I tried to include them in a couple of Falkland scenarios, but it appeared that the number of victory points given for firing into the hex was either random or determined by something I couldn't figure out. Consequently, it wasn't possible to try and balance the scenarios and I gave up on the idea. I like both of the ideas, however. I may try and design an asymetrical scenario, but I'll have to have a better idea of how it works than I do now.

Jeff

Yeah, I played around with a test scenario to determine how many points you lose when firing into a Collateral Hex, but it was always different.

I think in order to really use them effectively, you pretty much need to make those hexes away from a normal objective, otherwise it will be too easy for the defender to plant his ass on that hex and blast away, knowing full well that the attacker really can't hit that hex very hard for risk of losing major points.

I also only think they'd work well in a modern setting where the ROE are such that civilians and specific buildings, like mosques or churches, need to be avoided. In WWII if the enemy were in a building, down it went regardless of the cost, for the most part.

You can perhaps make a building a collateral hex, marked as a mosque or school, and put a sniper on it, giving you a fit to maneuver effectively, but capturing the reality that hitting a mosque with arty or air support as being a no-go. It would add a bit of reality to the scenario in terms of the grunts having their hands tied by the ROE in a certain theatre. Also gives the defender some 'safe' zones where they know the attacker is probably not going to hit.

Dog Soldier · (This post was last modified: 12-20-2012, 06:36 AM by Dog Soldier.)

Would one lose VP to assault a collateral damage hex? I would think the solution to the sniper posted above is to go in and get the guy rather than standing back and plastering the building. Your options would seem limited by the ROE being simulated. My suggestion would not be popular with the troops given the mission. One cannot ignore the sniper. Lesser of two evils? Or does the game make no such distinction?

Dog Soldier

Jeff Conner · 12-20-2012, 04:03 PM,

My take on the collateral hex idea is similar to Alan's; a location for "political" reasons that has a cost to fire up. So the opposing player has to make a risk-reward decision on whether to attack it or not. The problem is, if you can't figure out what the risk is, than it is pretty hard to determine if the reward is worth it. I wanted to use it in one of the Falklands scenarios to simulate a hospital ship equipped with a spotlight. Shooting at a hospital ship is pretty much a no-no, but if you can can destroy the searchlight before it lights up all of your raider craft, it might be worth it. I could never get it to work though as the points seemed to be random and tweaked the victory conditions all out of whack. I think the idea has merit though.

Jeff

TheBigRedOne · (This post was last modified: 12-21-2012, 01:26 AM by TheBigRedOne.)

(12-20-2012, 06:35 AM)Dog Soldier Wrote: Would one lose VP to assault a collateral damage hex? I would think the solution to the sniper posted above is to go in and get the guy rather than standing back and plastering the building. Your options would seem limited by the ROE being simulated. My suggestion would not be popular with the troops given the mission. One cannot ignore the sniper. Lesser of two evils? Or does the game make no such distinction?

Dog Soldier

Off the top of my head, I don't recall if you lose points to assault a collateral hex. I'm off the rest of the year after today, maybe I'll play around a bit and test what those hexes can/cannot withstand.

You'd also have to do it in such a way that the defender is relatively 'weak'. You can't have a 12 man squad with all the battle rattle parked on that hex and expect to dislodge them with an assault without softening them up first. A sniper would be a good situation because a squad or two should be able to defeat a lone individual without the need to pin them.

I agree with Jeff, it has merit, but it won't be the focal point of a scenario. It could add a bit of realism, however, if applied well.