Moscow´42 Fall Kreml Scenarios Global Supply 100

[Bayes]

Hi! Have noticed that the Fall Kreml scenarios in Moscow´42 have a global supply level of 100 for both the Axis and Soviet side. This means that HQs never get Out of Command in those scenarios, which removes the need for dealing with/worrying about the typical impact Out of Command HQs have on their subordinate units. There is also no point in optimizing "chain of command" between HQs because HQs will never need the support of their parent HQs as this is only needed when a command check fails.

It would be interesting to know the design reasons for "turning off" the Out of Command feature of the PzC game engine for these scenarios.

Any thoughts/experience concerning this?

Thanks,

Bayes

[raizer]

Your premise is not correct. If all the units were sitting on top of their supply sources, on the map edge and NEVER moved away from those sources, yah maybe. But your chances to remain in supply are worsened for each hex you move away from your supply source....and its modified again for your morale level...and its modified again by terrain

So try running a few turns b4 and experiment

Im at turn 12-14 in a team game of fall kremel as the germans, and my supply levels are consistently 70-even some 69s...and that is only 12 turns in with A and B units,-not 150 turns in and another 150 hexes away from the supply sources. So, as evidenced by only a few hexes off the starting line, the levels are only at 70, and as we go further East (hopefully) the levels will continue to drop. These scenarios are tested btw for VST. Take my example and apply it to D level russian uints that are 100-150 hexes+ West of their supply sources.

so maybe you dont use VST? The designer says to use VST

[Bayes]

I know raizer - I am using VST and the local supply level in the hexes are as you state. This allows low ammo/fuel effects for the combat units. My HQs, however, never get Out of Command because the Command Check of HQs do not use the local supply, only the global level of 100. I haven't seen many pzc titles with global supply level of 100, typically they range fron 40-90, allowing Out of Command effects. That is why I posted my question. Hope that made sense.

Bayes

Your premise is not correct. If all the units were sitting on top of their supply sources, on the map edge and NEVER moved away from those sources, yah maybe. But your chances to remain in supply are worsened for each hex you move away from your supply source....and its modified again for your morale level...and its modified again by terrain

So try running a few turns b4 and experiment

Im at turn 12-14 in a team game of fall kremel as the germans, and my supply levels are consistently 70-even some 69s...and that is only 12 turns in with A and B units,-not 150 turns in and another 150 hexes away from the supply sources. So, as evidenced by only a few hexes off the starting line, the levels are only at 70, and as we go further East (hopefully) the levels will continue to drop. These scenarios are tested btw for VST. Take my example and apply it to D level russian uints that are 100-150 hexes+ West of their supply sources.

so maybe you dont use VST? The designer says to use VST

[Dog Soldier]

Bayes,
You are correct that there is a command test based on supply for the highest command level. At 100 global supply that HQ (Army Group for Axis and Front command for Russians) will never be out of command. At that high a level I think the designer gets it right.

What you are forgetting is all other commands in the chain of command are subject to two tests, the second being the command range test (first the supply test then this second test). The range from the HQ being tested to the superior HQ is R hexes, and if the superior HQ has a Modified Command Range of C, then the HQ unit passes the second test provided that a randomly generated number between 0 and 1 is less than C / (R + C).

Thus it is possible for HQ's below the highest command level to be 'out of command' due to the second test.

Hope this explains why you should see some HQ's out of command.

Dog Soldier

[Bayes]

Thanks Dog Soldier, I was a bit unclear. I do not observe any HQs at all being listed as Out of Command in the Fall Kreml scenarios. All of the HQs are always listed as being in command.

I believe this is consistent with the rules because they state that the Range Test provides a second chance IF the Global Supply Level check fails. But the Global Supply check never fails when the value is 100. Thus the second chance is never needed for any HQ.

Given this, I might prefer a Global Supply level less than 100.

Bayes,
You are correct that there is a command test based on supply for the highest c
ommand level. At 100 global supply that HQ (Army Group for Axis and Front command for Russians) will never be out of command. At that high a level I think the designer gets it right.

What you are forgetting is all other commands in the chain of command are subject to two tests, the second being the command range test (first the supply test then this second test). The range from the HQ being tested to the superior HQ is R hexes, and if the superior HQ has a Modified Command Range of C, then the HQ unit passes the second test provided that a randomly generated number between 0 and 1 is less than C / (R + C).

Thus it is possible for HQ's below the highest command level to be 'out of command' due to the second test.

Hope this explains why you should see some HQ's out of command.

Dog Soldier

[Strela]

All,

This maybe an oversight by me. Dog Soldier / Raizer, are you seeing any out of supply HQ's in your latest start of turn command report of the campaign we are playing? I am not seeing any for the Soviet's currently.

David

[raizer]

yah know bayes is right...No HQ out of command here David. Gonna need a fix?

[Elxaime]

I am thirty plus turns into the central attack version of a Fall Kreml and just now checked the turn. Confirm no Soviet HQs out of command.

However, as a play balance matter how does this impact the scenario? I agree it needs looking at and fixing, but if both sides benefit from it does it help one side or another more? I am wondering if it is so significant as to require a restart.

Advise.

[Strela]

I am thirty plus turns into the central attack version of a Fall Kreml and just now checked the turn. Confirm no Soviet HQs out of command.

However, as a play balance matter how does this impact the scenario? I agree it needs looking at and fixing, but if both sides benefit from it does it help one side or another more? I am wondering if it is so significant as to require a restart.

Advise.

Personally, I wouldn't restart as both sides are favored. I will get scenarios updated ASAP for all new games. I alo believe I can fix unencrypted save files, but can't do anything for encrypted ones.

Finally, I will probably put the global supply at the same value for both sides (thinking 80).....

David

[Bayes]

Sounds great, Strela - thanks for the excellent support and a magnificent game!

Bayes