N '44; Breakout without trucks

[FM WarB]

The oobs (even for the Cobra, Goodwood and Falaise scenarios) have all infantry Foot class, including the inf bdes belonging to Brit Armoured Divs.

How can one expect to do a Patton traffic cop at Argentan imitation if all his infantry are walking???

Why play a 750 turn scenario knowing every hole you punch can be patched because you do not have the motorized infantry you should?

I can't figure out a good way to replace foot infantry with motorized infantry in the middle of a long scenario. If I were to play a Mid July on scenario, I'd want all American and at least the Brit inf an armoured Bdes to be motorized class.

(I do wish the game engine forced all Motorized class infantry to Go on Foot to fight...)

[Dog Soldier]

(I do wish the game engine forced all Motorized class infantry to Go on Foot to fight...)

I believe motorized infantry fight without having to be 'on foot' because their vehicles add S/A factors. This especially true of Allied infantry where HT could have quad 50 cal or a single 50 or 30 cal MG mounted on some of the vehicles.

I know the game engine does not penalize the unit S/A value for going 'on foot'. Just one of those things.

Dog Soldier

[FM WarB]

By Motorized infantry, I refer to truck transported, not halftrack mounted infantry. Trucks were vulnerable and often used for more than just moving infantry. Trucks would drop infantry off before reaching the front in most cases, often shuttling off to perform other missions.

[jonnymacbrown]

By Motorized infantry, I refer to truck transported, not halftrack mounted infantry. Trucks were vulnerable and often used for more than just moving infantry. Trucks would drop infantry off before reaching the front in most cases, often shuttling off to perform other missions.

Didn't the USA invent the term "motor pool" to indicate trucks that would drop off infantry and then go back and pick up more guys? The trucks were not an intrinsic part of any infantry unit but perhaps Corps? jonny

[Dog Soldier]

By Motorized infantry, I refer to truck transported, not halftrack mounted infantry. Trucks were vulnerable and often used for more than just moving infantry. Trucks would drop infantry off before reaching the front in most cases, often shuttling off to perform other missions.

I see your point. However the original game system was not intended for long time periods where the composition of the units would change.
I suppose a withdrawal/reinforcement S/O could be made in a long 750 turn CG to replace certain foot infantry units with motorized infantry. However, this would lead to gamey use of burning out such units by an Allied player knowing these units will return magically with greater strength than when they are withdrawn.

Setting these units as motorized from when they appear in Normandy would also lead to gamey use of them during a time period in the campaign when they simply did not have such mobility.
Setting the units to motorized in the pdf but 'on foot' would require an agreement between players to not send them to the HQ to return their vehicles until a certain turn. To simulate a truck pool would require nothing more than using the 'on foot' option then send the units to their HQ to regain transport. Then back to 'on foot' status, so on and so forth.
To resist the temptation to keep all such units mobile all the time would be up to the Allied player.

I just do not see a mechanism in the game engine that would achieve what you want to simulate without a certain level of trust the Allied player would not abuse the 'on foot' work around.

Operation Cobra (crossing the highway connecting Lessay, Periers and St Lo) to drive on Avranches had the infantry marching for the most part. I recently read a book this summer on Cobra and the breakout. I do not recall there being an emphasis on a truly 'motorized' infantry division on the Allied side.
The US 4th Armor Division was the spear tip which kept up the momentum of the drive bypassing centers of resistance. This drive (and the air support for it) kept the Germans from returning the front to a static nature. Infantry divisions from 8th, 7th and 19th Corps reduced the bypassed German pockets following the armored division. The infantry mostly 7th Corps) also played a key role in protecting 4th Armor's flank from the German VII Army & II Para Corps counter attacks on July 28 -30. No great operational need for trucks to accomplish this task.

In game terms the distances are not so great as to require motorizing the infantry, IMHO. Roughly, Lessay is 60 km from Avranches and St Lo is fifty km. Cobra ran from July 24 - 31, again roughly 80 turns. Averaging less than a hex per turn over 80 turns seems very possible without needing motorized trucks. I am just saying...

For the later breakout from Normandy to the Seine (moves into Brittany capturing Brest, Lorient and Nantes) the 6th and 4th Armored divisions did all the movement. They had motorized infantry as part of each division. 20th Corps marched across the 'neck' of Brittany. This is a much shorter distance. The armored divisions dropped off temporarily some of their infantry component to seal the Germans in Brest, Lorient & St Nazaire until the infantry divisions arrived to reduce these pockets. The Germans moved into these pockets because they lacked the mobility to fight the two armor divisions in the open.
I know the breakout is beyond the scope of the N44 game. I use it here to show there was no need for full motorized infantry divisions on the operational level that the PzC game covers.

A more tactical game system would indeed need to consider the proper use of trucks. (Think CS.) Easier said than done.

Dog Soldier

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

The only thing I can see would be to either add truck units that would actually load the inf like in CS and move them or be allocated so mant truck points to do the same. You wouldn't get the same amount of truck points per turn as those being used would take some time to get back to the motor pool or ordered to their next assignment. I wouldn't mind seeing truck units using explcit supply where the trucks have to go to depots to reload supplies and move them to the front to distribute or create another supply dump and also being able to use them to load an inf unit like the supply points and move them forward. But you would have to make the choice of using trucks for one or the other at different times during the campaign. Of your available trucks, the more you use to transport inf forward, the less you have to distribute supplies. You may at some point have enough to do both, but most of the time, I would think you would have to sacrifice one or the other at different points along your front. I think that would be good to have in all the games and would add alot more problems to conduct one's plans. Again though, it would be part of the option of playing with explicit supply on. I think that would be a good addition to the game system, especially for the campaigns or just the larger, longer scenarios as well as the campaigns.

[tbridges]

The only thing I can see would be to either add truck units that would actually load the inf like in CS and move them or be allocated so mant truck points to do the same. You wouldn't get the same amount of truck points per turn as those being used would take some time to get back to the motor pool or ordered to their next assignment. I wouldn't mind seeing truck units using explcit supply where the trucks have to go to depots to reload supplies and move them to the front to distribute or create another supply dump and also being able to use them to load an inf unit like the supply points and move them forward. But you would have to make the choice of using trucks for one or the other at different times during the campaign. Of your available trucks, the more you use to transport inf forward, the less you have to distribute supplies. You may at some point have enough to do both, but most of the time, I would think you would have to sacrifice one or the other at different points along your front. I think that would be good to have in all the games and would add alot more problems to conduct one's plans. Again though, it would be part of the option of playing with explicit supply on. I think that would be a good addition to the game system, especially for the campaigns or just the larger, longer scenarios as well as the campaigns.

Excellent ideas, Mark! This kind of truck usage would add a ton of realism to the games.

[Kuriltai]

could not something similar to rail mode be implemented ?

[Sgt Jasper]

To me, a more glaring example is the 101st and 82nd Airborne units in Bulge (pretty sure this has been discussed before.) They were trucked in and dropped off, and the trucks booked off for other duties. The airborne boys were then on foot for the duration of the battle. They were also severely understrength. In the game they are fully motorized, and full strength. Para-panzers!