Some areas for possible larger, longer SB scenarios

[TheBigRedOne]

Sounds great..but as you say it falls apart when it comes to the defender..maybe lots of fixed units..however ammo would be brought up to them which again can't really be done..once a squad drops a weapon it's effectiveness drops through the floor..so making that pointless.

The only time effectiveness is decreased is if the weapon was 'dropped' by a causality. If you have a fresh weapon that is accidentally dropped (we've all done it), nothing about that weapon changes. I've also seen plenty of weapons dropped by casualties, especially early in a battle, have 75% effectiveness, which when ammo is running low, isn't bad. In general, the effectiveness drop tries to simulate the fact that say a German picks up an M-1 Garand, chances are he doesn't have a whole lot of ammo to put that weapon to use. It also tries to abstract that the wounded or killed soldier was potentially removed from the battlefield, as they would normally.

The 'rest and refit' in the engine attempts to address a squad and it's weapons getting low on ammo. It does require that squad not fire, move, or being fired upon, but you can regain lost effectiveness over time in the SB engine. For longer scenarios this is a very useful thing to use. Pull a tired squad off the line to regroup for several turns, then plug them back when their effectiveness increases.

In general the abstraction of weapons is good. Not perfect, but good. Many SB veterans will comment that players tend to get trigger happy in general, firing full loads, every weapon each and every turn, never using the Hold Fire option to conserve on ammo when it comes to op fire. Grunts didn't have an unlimited supply of ammo in most situations, and re-supply was never a guarantee. Pick your shots carefully and conserve your ammunition is always a pretty sound rule.

[Jeff Conner]

Scenario designers have used a couple different techniques to simulate resupply. One is the introduction of fresh weapons as reinforcements. This includes the introduction of small arms via trucks or other means and the replacement of fixed units (such as artillery) with new fresh, or nearly fresh units.

Reinforcements in a longer game can be quite powerful as not only do they have weapons at full effectiveness, but their status (and hence morale) is at full effectiveness also. Defenders can also receive reinforcements simulating the commitment of their reserves. Or the designer can encourage the player to establish his own reserves that he can commit when he wants to.

One thing this discussion seems to be overlooking is the addition several years ago of the "Rest" value in the pdt. If a unit does not move, fire or receive fire during a turn, it is deemed to be resting and will have it's effectiveness (both the unit and it's weapons) increase. The amount of increase is set by the designer in the pdt file (which if you haven't looked at, you probably should). So if your units are fatigued and low on ammo, pull them out of the line for as long as you can and they will recover, although perhaps not as fast as you would like. Unfortunately, while this feature has been added to the older titles, in many cases no values have been included and so the recovery rate is set to zero. You should check the pdt value to determine if there is a non-zero value before trying to rest your units.

As for new titles with major changes in programming, that is far beyond the scope of anyone who comments regularly on this message board. And given the paucity of response to changes suggested by the design group through the years, I wouldn't hold my breath. I think most of us have ideas on what would make the game better, but there are constraints that most of us don't understand.

Jeff

[TheBigRedOne]

One thing this discussion seems to be overlooking is the addition several years ago of the "Rest" value in the pdt. If a unit does not move, fire or receive fire during a turn, it is deemed to be resting and will have it's effectiveness (both the unit and it's weapons) increase. The amount of increase is set by the designer in the pdt file (which if you haven't looked at, you probably should). So if your units are fatigued and low on ammo, pull them out of the line for as long as you can and they will recover, although perhaps not as fast as you would like. Unfortunately, while this feature has been added to the older titles, in many cases no values have been included and so the recovery rate is set to zero. You should check the pdt value to determine if there is a non-zero value before trying to rest your units.

Ahem...

The 'rest and refit' in the engine attempts to address a squad and it's weapons getting low on ammo. It does require that squad not fire, move, or being fired upon, but you can regain lost effectiveness over time in the SB engine. For longer scenarios this is a very useful thing to use. Pull a tired squad off the line to regroup for several turns, then plug them back when their effectiveness increases.

I thought that the rest and refit values for the older games was modified during the last round of updates. I'll have to check. Maybe I'm thinking that it needed to be done. Each game was assigned different values, trying to simulate the era and the ease of re-supply, correct?

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

Rest and Refit is fine except, there just aren't enough turns in a scenario to rely on it.

[Jeff Conner]

Sorry Alan, it obviously took me some time to write my missive.

When you intentionally drop a weapon, it does not lose any effectiveness. When it occurs as a result of combat, a primary weapon loses 50% of it's effectiveness and a secondary weapon loses 25%.

If the scenario is not long enough for rest and refit to accomplish anything, why are we talking about resupply? On another note, a scenario designer now has the ability to give weapons an X rating (first used in FWW, but now available via update in most of the titles I think). These weapons do not lose effectiveness as they fire. A setup heavy weapon with this rating would be difficult to handle and I would not be too surprised to see more use of this in the future.

My main computer is in the shop and the only SB game I have installed on my new laptop is Korea. The values in Korea are 10% for the good guys and 8% for the bad guys. If I remember correctly, this means that the values will increase by a random selection between zero and the value per turn. So on average, your effectiveness should increase by 5% per turn for the UN forces and 4% per turn for the Communists.

Jeff

[Wodin]

Still wish we had proper ammo counts and resupply function. So much detail in the game yet suddenly goes abstract on this point. This and multi floor buildings are two features I'd have a party over. It certainly would bring me back to the series in a big way and purchase the games I don't yet own. JT underestimates SB and I feel is wrong about his belief major changes wont be financially sound. I think with some updated features sales would increase LOADS as so many out there are looking for a superb turn based tactical game that isn't either years old or to abstract (AKA CoH). Loads are waiting on LnL yet even that is more abstract than SB.

If I won the lottery I'd either by the series off him or make my own. Then create the ultimate tactical level game for the PC..with all the features we pine for. Not cutting corners.

Sorry Alan, it obviously took me some time to write my missive.

When you intentionally drop a weapon, it does not lose any effectiveness. When it occurs as a result of combat, a primary weapon loses 50% of it's effectiveness and a secondary weapon loses 25%.

If the scenario is not long enough for rest and refit to accomplish anything, why are we talking about resupply? On another note, a scenario designer now has the ability to give weapons an X rating (first used in FWW, but now available via update in most of the titles I think). These weapons do not lose effectiveness as they fire. A setup heavy weapon with this rating would be difficult to handle and I would not be too surprised to see more use of this in the future.

My main computer is in the shop and the only SB game I have installed on my new laptop is Korea. The values in Korea are 10% for the good guys and 8% for the bad guys. If I remember correctly, this means that the values will increase by a random selection between zero and the value per turn. So on average, your effectiveness should increase by 5% per turn for the UN forces and 4% per turn for the Communists.

Jeff

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

I keep saying there needs to be larger, longer scenarios, even if a scenario was to cover several days. Need the supply, replacement and I would like to see some area movement introduced in those to make it easier for units to move until reaching an area that is conflicted, just have to put the units in an Order of March and time between intervals or make the interval a standard 5 or 10 minutes apart so that when reaching an area that is conflicted, they arrive over several turns. That would make it easier to move larger units which were either companies, battalions, kampfgruppes and task forces. New titles rather than adding scenarios so at least it could help cover some costs, which in my opinion should be reduced since everything is DD rather than having cds made and mailed. Squad Battles Normandy, Market-Garden, Sicily, Salerno, Anzio, Italy, Dragoon, France 40, Bulge, Nordwind, Vosges, Rhine, Aachen etc etc. And that is just the West Front. It would be something familiar and a little different at the same time and would keep moving forward. With having area movement for the nonactive areas, still need maps for each area that connect the whole. If not something like this, do a similar one instead with units like SBs, 82 AB, 101 AB, Grossdeutschland etc etc.

Taking the next farther step would make this series even better, IMO.

[Wodin]

DO like the sound of a game concentrating on a particular division..

SB has buckets of latent potential. It's a damn fine wargame..but oh so near yet so far from turning into an unbeatable classic.

I even love the 2D mode (modded abit though). When you look a boardgame art these days then SB really should be on the same par. However for me more important is gameplay and I'd be so happy if SB was looked at again for a major renovation;)

Please don't get me wrong..SB holds a special place in my heart..

I keep saying there needs to be larger, longer scenarios, even if a scenario was to cover several days. Need the supply, replacement and I would like to see some area movement introduced in those to make it easier for units to move until reaching an area that is conflicted, just have to put the units in an Order of March and time between intervals or make the interval a standard 5 or 10 minutes apart so that when reaching an area that is conflicted, they arrive over several turns. That would make it easier to move larger units which were either companies, battalions, kampfgruppes and task forces. New titles rather than adding scenarios so at least it could help cover some costs, which in my opinion should be reduced since everything is DD rather than having cds made and mailed. Squad Battles Normandy, Market-Garden, Sicily, Salerno, Anzio, Italy, Dragoon, France 40, Bulge, Nordwind, Vosges, Rhine, Aachen etc etc. And that is just the West Front. It would be something familiar and a little different at the same time and would keep moving forward. With having area movement for the nonactive areas, still need maps for each area that connect the whole. If not something like this, do a similar one instead with units like SBs, 82 AB, 101 AB, Grossdeutschland etc etc.

Taking the next farther step would make this series even better, IMO.

[TheBigRedOne]

My main computer is in the shop and the only SB game I have installed on my new laptop is Korea. The values in Korea are 10% for the good guys and 8% for the bad guys. If I remember correctly, this means that the values will increase by a random selection between zero and the value per turn. So on average, your effectiveness should increase by 5% per turn for the UN forces and 4% per turn for the Communists.

AoTR is 10 and 8.
Eagles Strike hasn't been adjusted, so 0-0
The two Pacific games main.pdts are 10-8
DBP is 10-8
RV's main.pdt is 5-5
SAW is 6-10
SCW is 4-4
TOD and VN are 8-6
WW is 5-5
Falklands is 10-2
FWW is 10-10 for all pdts
Modern War is surprisingly 10-10

[keif149]

AoTR is 10 and 8.
Eagles Strike hasn't been adjusted, so 0-0
The two Pacific games main.pdts are 10-8
DBP is 10-8
RV's main.pdt is 5-5
SAW is 6-10
SCW is 4-4
TOD and VN are 8-6
WW is 5-5
Falklands is 10-2
FWW is 10-10 for all pdts
Modern War is surprisingly 10-10

What does "Turn Delta" mean in the parameter data base?

I see it changes with some of the other game titles that have different
rest and refit values.

Thanks.