The Competition & Teaser Thread

[Strela]

The Soviets now have ~10 vehicle units as the smallest maneuver element or also ~5 tank units? I half expected that the Soviets would still be able to use ~20 tank battalions, as for mobile units a Soviet battalion is a Western company in effective strength in most cases. I guess it makes sense in this case though, as otherwise they'd automatically suffer more losses due to the new 50%> stacking limit penalties (which might not by itself be a problem, maybe it would add an interesting dimension to Soviet tank tactics: your losses are higher, but single units are bigger).

All units, no matter the nationality are built on either a platoon or a section structure. A Soviet tank company is usually three platoons of three vehicles plus a combat HQ of one vehicle. The combat HQ does not function like an HQ, it is there to get the vehicle strengths right.

Here is an example of a typical German Tank Company. It contains PzKw IVg's & PzKw IVh's.



Here is a mixed PzKw III & PzKw IV company. Left to right they are IIIm, IIIn & IVf2 types

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Something i need ask, the defensive works (IP, trenches, bunkers, pillboxes) in PzB unlike in PzC increase the armored units defensive bonus??? i think in the soviet dug-in tanks in Kursk (is only an example i dont say the game is going to cover Kursk ) or how in defensive works a tank can find a hull down position in a "clear" hex with no other terrain defensive bonus, if i dont remember bad tanks have a "hull down" status or something similar, but you can see this when they enter in defensive works???

My idea is that tanks in owned defensive positions have a defensive bonus but when they enter in non controled defensive works (enemy hexes or neutral hexes abandoned by any of the sides) until they control the hex they have hull down bonus that i think is inferior to hull down (hull down doesnt cover flanks and tanks are vulnerable to splash from arty).

OOOO is hard create an IP or trench??? or you only have the defensive works that start with scen??? if you need 2 hours to have a defensive work... and this is the very very very best situation in PzC using full btl units.

From the FAQ;
Vehicles will only get ½ the defensive benefit of the terrain in a hex and ½ the Improved Position and Trench fortifications benefit.
This value will be 1/4 for Improved Position or Trench if it is either enemy or previously unoccupied.

Both digging of IP & Trenches is controlled by a percentage in the Parameter Data File, essentially the same process as PzC.

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There's also the problem of IGOUGO when simulating more or less tactical battles using a more operational system: if units can get 3 opportunity fire chances per turn, it's possible to draw fire at a certain range and then simply move up and hit the unit without it being able to defend itself. In a tactical wargame, the unit will keep firing back as the distance closes until ammunition runs out (if the target is spotted and can be hit).

I'm actually sort of afraid of that at the 250m scale: the Soviets driving some weak low value units in front of the German tanks to draw their fire a couple of times and then moving the T-34's in to kill the helpless German armour.

Panzer Battles has taken the unlimited Defensive Fire feature from Squad Battles. No more 'soaking up' the three defensive fire shots as per PzC.

We have also removed an anomaly where small units could block line of sight (LOS) to a large unit and allow it have its own moving 'meat shield'. This was particularly effective using vehicles that could not be shot at except at close range by infantry due to their low Hard Attack values. At one point players could move a small vehicle unit and completely 'hide' a large company behind it. This has been fixed by having LOS only blocked by units that are 50% or more than the stacking limit. Lower than that limit and you can see and fire at those larger units trying to move forward - through the screening unit.

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So I have been reading thru the thread and I am still trying to figure out a few things. Granted I don't have PB (yet) and I am not a vet with PzC, but I will try to ask these in a writable format.

One:
Say I have 3 platoons with this many men each, 10,25,55 and combine them into a company and then break them back into platoons.
Will each have 30 men and have the lowest fatigue rating of the worse platoon at the time they formed into a company?

Two:
Isn't PzC setup so that if your HQ is destroyed during your turn, it will
come back at the start of your next turn?

Thanks in advance for bearing with my noob questions

Here is an example of combining and breaking up Platoon/Companies within the game.

On the left you can see three different strength/fatigue platoons. in the middle graphic the three platoons are now combined into a company equivalent. Please note the FATIGUE level. Unlike PzC's it averages based on both fatigue & strength. It does not take on the highest value. On the right, whenever you break a company down to its constituent platoons it will always average across the strength and fatigue. This is not configurable - sorry!




As far as HQ's, they do regenerate. It takes a random amount of time for them to return and their strength is less, they are fatigued and usually disrupted. Please remember that HQ's are normally only at Battalion or higher level and they are administrative HQ's for all intents and purposes.

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Strela, I'm not sure about this new series yet, although as usual I'm sorely tempted.

I'm sure the FAQ will be all well and good, but will the manual also be available for download before buying the game? I can usually get a much better feel about whether I'll like a game from a quick perusal of the manual than a couple of FAQs...

76mm,

The manuals are being worked on and I expect that they will be available for free download / review at the time the game is released. My Designer notes / FAQ will definitely be available as it was for both Kharkov '43 & Moscow '42. The Getting Started notes will also definitely be available.

As far as a demo. It hasn't been mentioned to me (yet). If there is one, it will come after this initial title is released.

David

[Richie61]

David,

Thanks for the replies!

Another maybe dumb question.

Won't this be like PzC and everybody will lump their units into battalions and not platoon or company sized units? What is going to stop people from putting all the units into one big group and playing PB like a Risk board game?

Won't this will be a company sized game in the end?

[Strela]

David,

Thanks for the replies!

Another maybe dumb question.

Won't this be like PzC and everybody will lump their units into battalions and not platoon or company sized units? What is going to stop people from putting all the units into one big group and playing PB like a Risk board game?

Won't this will be a company sized game in the end?

Never dumb :)

Firstly the stacking limits will work against you (250 men or equivalent in a hex). A German Grenadier company has 144 men in three platoons. They could only squeeze another two platoons into a hex.

Secondly, you want to stack them up like that? Watch the death that occurs due to you exceeding the hex density limits. That big stack is just perfect for a Rocket strike etc.

Finally you have four times the ground to protect than you do in PzC (250 meter hexes vs 1 kilometre). You want to stack everyone in one or two hexes? Watch your opponent run around you and make life very uncomfortable for that big unit you just corralled for them.

It's a nice game of compromises - you need to group your men into companies dependant on the situation but particularly on the attack. But you can't do it everywhere, all the time and as expected it attracts the bulk of the defenders attention.

David

[Richie61]

David,

Again, thanks for the reply! I am a squad battle guy and this is very new to me

Need a beta tester?

[Dog Soldier]

Sorry if my comments about killing cats got people speculating all the wrong ways to do it.

Use proper period tactics with the tools available in the Allied arsenal and you will kill the big cats. Drop a huge amount of very large bombs from a B17 or Mitchell and watch the big cats do flips. Scream in with a Sturmikov, Spitfire or P-51 loaded with rockets or tank killing cannon, yeah you might get one. Nothing is ever certain. Open up on a tank with a ATG, tank or other well equipped hard target killer unit at very close range, and there is a dead cat.

Think you will stand off at four hexes (1Km) and plink away with a T34/76c or a Sherman, Grant or Lee tank with a smaller caliber turret gun, and you will be the toast of the battlefield. As in burnt toast. You cannot play the game their way and expect to defeat them.

My point was to dispel an earlier comment that big cats are invincible implying they can just storm around the battlefield at will. They are tough opponents and hard to bring down. But with some thought and skill you can get one.
But as Gimli says, That still only counts as one!

Dog Soldier

[ComradeP]

Thanks for the answers thus far David.

Unlike PzC's it averages based on both fatigue & strength.

That sounds promising, it will allow the player to either leave units at their starting strength or strength after combat, or create the most balanced force possible for the amount of men/vehicles/guns available.

I guess it could be inconvenient if you want to move units around and limit the clicks (or fatigue, if the same kind of increased fatigue logic that applies to companies of a battalion applies to platoons in a company) by combining them, as you'd always get averaged values when you break them down again, but otherwise it sounds good.

[Xaver]

Thanks for the info.

Then work as in PzC bunkers and pillboxes dont offer defensive bonus to armored units. Again as in PzC a PDT value control dug-in and nice see how screen units are based in a density value.

Ummm now i see how works the game when you join units and divide them i have a little question, as in PzC you have a PDT value to control unit firepower??? you know an unit between 70%-100% strenght has 90%-100% firepower, only under 70% you can be under 90%.

Umlimited defensive fire... you notice if this feature increase the game length???.

I have other questions more technical like if time between a shoot and result is like in other title games or now is faster and if see a turn replay is faster to, in some games you need a lot of time to see a turn because hide enemy actions take replay time.

I expect manuals be ready but if this is the only thing that needs works i am happy hehehe.

Again thanks for the info, expect see game soon.

[Strela]

Ummm now i see how works the game when you join units and divide them i have a little question, as in PzC you have a PDT value to control unit firepower??? you know an unit between 70%-100% strenght has 90%-100% firepower, only under 70% you can be under 90%.

Umlimited defensive fire... you notice if this feature increase the game length???.

Yes the PDT value is the same; Infantry Strength of 70% men = 90% effectiveness.


No noticeable difference with the unlimited defensive fire. It's probably more obvious as you move units - you know when you have stumbled onto enemy forces.

There is low unit density in the Battalion & Regiment scenarios and these games are particularly quick. At the opposite end with the Corp sized scenarios there are obviously a lot more units but all the scenarios are under 40 turns long.

David

[Richie61]

David,

Another one

You stated this early in the thread:

It is built on the Panzer Campaigns engine with Squad Battles features as well as new routines to reflect this scale.

Can you explain a bit on the Squad Battles features? I see the PzC features so far, but being a Squad Battles junkie I am very interested to see (hear about) the SB features in this new game!

[ComradeP]

OK, after doing some math:

Assuming the average German infantry company consists of two units, with an infantry and MMG component and the mortars being in the HW company, the average infantry division could have at least 120 units when merged into companies or the maximum merge level for the heavy weapons, AT units and artillery, depending on the variety in equipment and thus in units (at this scale, mixed units don't sound like an option considering the smallest unit size is 2-3 guns or so, possibly even single guns). Compared to about 25 on average in PzC.

So, a full strength 9 battalion division would have about 4-5 times as many units compared to PzC? Compared to PzC, there would be more support units than true infantry combat units I guess.

For a 3-4 division corps that would be some 400 to a bit over 500 units if support assets are included. I guess it might be a pain to move the many 2-3 gun units each turn, but all things considered 500 units doesn't sound too bad.