The Competition & Teaser Thread

[Strela]

Some additional questions, sorry to give you such a headache David.

-What happens when a vehicle with passengers drives into a minefield, do both units (AFV+passengers) take losses "normally" even though the infantry isn't walking and thus less vulnerable to anti-personnel mines?

We've answered this one already, I think.

-What happens when a vehicle with passengers is fired at by an attacker without a soft attack value for that range (by a weapon with a greater hard attack range than soft attack range for example)? Can the passengers ever take losses from such an attack (possibly simulating tanks exploding after the ammo was hit or brewing up)?

Firstly, I could not find one unit where the soft range did not equal the hard range so I can't check that.

I did do some test firings at some hapless submachine gunners on the back of T-34's to see what happened when beyond hard range etc.

Here is the first shot on the firing range. It's at soft attack range and is essentially HE shell being shot. The 'D' result was the passengers not the tank unit. The red line is the Hard attack range, the green the soft attack range;



A second shot takes out more of the riders;



Finally, here is a shot within the hard attack range of the firing unit. A T-34 and some of the passengers are taken out, In all the test shots I fired, more riders are lost when a vehicle brews up;

What happens if a vehicle is destroyed, and the unit of vehicles is no longer capable of carrying all of the passengers? Do the passengers automatically dismount the moment after the carrying capacity is exceeded or will the vehicle unit become "encumbered" (as they'd say in D&D) and would it not be able to move until the passengers are removed (like in PzC where the arrival of reinforcements or regaining strength can cause a stack to go over the stacking limit), with the passengers still staying on top of the vehicle until the player manually removes them on his next turn?

I have not seen in testing at any point more passengers than allowed to be carried on vehicles. I would not be surprised if when a vehicle is destroyed sufficient riders are removed to keep the load within the carrying limit.

What happens when a unit with passengers is merged into a bigger unit with platoons without passengers, if this is possible?

Where do the passengers go when that unit is split-up again, provided the combining could take place?

What happens when, as strengths are averaged out when broken down, when the multiple platoon/company unit is broken down none of its components would have enough vehicles to be able to carry the passengers, provided the combining could take place with passengers so they're still around?

You try do this and you get a message;
Units that are carrying cannot combine or breakdown.

That fixes that problem!

Are the opportunity fire preferences rounded up or down in terms of hexes? Say a unit is set to S with a maximum range of 4, does that mean it will fire at targets up to 2 hexes away or just the adjacent hex? Based on your description, I assume there's no way to have long range weapons only fire at targets adjacent to it or possibly up to 2 hexes. For example: the range 16 Tiger in the example would when set to S fire at targets at 5 or 6 hexes away, so still more than 1 kilometre away. The opportunity fire preference mechanism might as such give better results for shorter ranged units, because it's easier to set up an actual ambush with them.

I don't know definitively and will have to slow a replay down to check, but I would expect it would round up. Otherwise units with a range say of one or two run into issues.

David

[Compass Rose]

Good Stuff!

Not sure if this has been asked and I missed it, sunce this has turned into a monster thread.

In PzC armor main gun loads are automatically handled by the AI.

In SB the armor ammo loads are manually handled by the player. If you want to switch from AP rounds to HE, you have to manually select it and it will stay in that ammo setting until you manually change the ammo load back to AP.

How are main gun armor ammo loads handled in PzB?

Thanks

[Strela]

Good Stuff!

Not sure if this has been asked and I missed it, sunce this has turned into a monster thread.

In PzC armor main gun loads are automatically handled by the AI.

In SB the armor ammo loads are manually handled by the player. If you want to switch from AP rounds to HE, you have to manually select it and it will stay in that ammo setting until you manually change the ammo load back to AP.

How are main gun armor ammo loads handled in PzB?

Thanks

It is a monster thread and no it hasn't been asked.

Ammo selection is automatic.

David

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

I understand that a lot of casualties COULD happen when riding a vehicle, but at the sound of the chit hitting the fan, you have some wondrously quick people all of a sudden. I just don't see all of them being killed like that. I know you took three shots, but I would think a tank opening fire would be shooting at the enemy tanks with AP rather than HE and concentrating on it's riders. Maybe something to consider would be that with the first shot, casualties suffered and the rest auto dismount in disrupted mode seems more realistic and the tanks opening up are firing at enemy tank and not the riders until the first shot, then the choice is yours.

[Strela]

I understand that a lot of casualties COULD happen when riding a vehicle, but at the sound of the chit hitting the fan, you have some wondrously quick people all of a sudden. I just don't see all of them being killed like that. I know you took three shots, but I would think a tank opening fire would be shooting at the enemy tanks with AP rather than HE and concentrating on it's riders. Maybe something to consider would be that with the first shot, casualties suffered and the rest auto dismount in disrupted mode seems more realistic and the tanks opening up are firing at enemy tank and not the riders until the first shot, then the choice is yours.

The first two shots were beyond hard attack range so they were HE. The last one was in hard attack range and killed a tank.

Also please note that this was ten panzers firing - that's a big unit in game to be honest, so casualties are a factor of that as well.

The good news is that there is a parameter that determines the defensive values for passengers. I'll do a little more testing using different values to make certain the values are sensible. The current value of four was inherited and that maybe to low.

David

[jimcrowley]

David, looking at your 'firing range' example, I'm somewhat surprised by the engagement distances; 10 hexes (2500m) and 13 hexes (3250m).

These are on the edge of the upper extreme of range for armour engagements. While they did happen, such long range duels tended to be extraordinary and were limited to the likes of the Tiger II. Those in your example look like Mk IV's.

I would hope that getting routine hits at those sorts of distance would be rare indeed.

[Strela]

David, looking at your 'firing range' example, I'm somewhat surprised by the engagement distances; 10 hexes (2500m) and 13 hexes (3250m).

These are on the edge of the upper extreme of range for armour engagements. While they did happen, such long range duels tended to be extraordinary and were limited to the likes of the Tiger II. Those in your example look like Mk IV's.

I would hope that getting routine hits at those sorts of distance would be rare indeed.

Jim,

I agree. There are a couple of factors influencing what I have shown. It's maximum visibility and clear terrain. More importantly, there are a lot of vehicles firing at once (10) and finally the odds were stacked against the riders.

I had not done any structured testing on these before and have spent time today trying different values.

Ultimately I have ended up changing the 'exterior defense' parameter to 16, the same as normal infantry defense. Another factor is the riders are in travel mode while onboard and that alone was sufficient penalty.

As far as the above ranges in game? You'll very rarely see them. Visibility averages 8 hexes and the terrain will influence many areas.

David

[Xaver]

Something i dont remember ask... then soviet basic infantry unit is company no??? or maybe could be platoons in MG companies, mortars, recon and similar support elements??? if AT gun units have same structure as german AT gun units...

About raiders, i think the punish is low when they receive fire but specially when the tank is destroyed and well, if raiders take casualties leave the vehicles dismounting is more real than stay in the tank eating more steel (well i dont know if infantry is dismounted and we cant see them thanks to the spot system) apart this maybe i think when the tank+raiders assault enemy need be diferent from tank+raiders receive enemy assault, is not the same enter in enemy hex using assault shock than be ambushed when you move and receive enemy attack... but in both situations i think when raiders are assaulted or receive one need dismount after see the assault result.

Thanks for the pics.

[ComradeP]

Platoons as the lowest level for the Soviets too I believe Xaver, as otherwise they'd not be able to place most infantry units on tanks and they'd nearly automatically get hit with the "50%> of stacking limit" casualty penalty.

-

An indirectly Panzer Battles related question: will there be a new ladder?

[Xaver]

Well, i ask this because in the recon spotting example the soviet motorized infantry is a company... 111 soldiers and well if i dont remember bad the stack limit is 50% of 250 this means that 125 soldiers are in the limit, over here start the penalty.

Maybe here could be interesting post the spotting formula because i see strange you can spot an AT unit made of 3 guns but you miss a full infantry company... maybe terrain impact in infantry camo is higher than in other unit types???.