Who has Fired/Who has Not/Concealment Question

[Compass Rose]

In the SB series, one of the ways to identify if a unit is still considered concealed and has not fired is to look at the weapons of that unit. If they are still showing 100% effectiveness, then you know that they have not been fired and if you can remember that they did not move, then they are still considered concealed.

I know that PzC series did not use this weapon effectiveness rating and the new PzB does not either.

So my question is directed towards for any of the PzB Kursk team or anyone else who may know.

If you are playing a scenario with many units, is there a way to help you identify which units who you "think" are still in hiding and who have not fired on the enemy, from the units on your side who have already fired on the enemy? If not, how did you guys keep track of this during your play-testing to be successful in carrying out ambushes and/or allowing the enemy to walk into a trap?

Thanks

[Strela]

In the SB series, one of the ways to identify if a unit is still considered concealed and has not fired is to look at the weapons of that unit. If they are still showing 100% effectiveness, then you know that they have not been fired and if you can remember that they did not move, then they are still considered concealed.

I know that PzC series did not use this weapon effectiveness rating and the new PzB does not either.

So my question is directed towards for any of the PzB Kursk team or anyone else who may know.

If you are playing a scenario with many units, is there a way to help you identify which units who you "think" are still in hiding and who have not fired on the enemy, from the units on your side who have already fired on the enemy? If not, how did you guys keep track of this during your play-testing to be successful in carrying out ambushes and/or allowing the enemy to walk into a trap?

Thanks

To be honest a lot of the 'enhancement' to persistent concealment & opportunity fire happened in the last eight weeks before release. This came about as we realised how powerful (and important to gameplay) these features could be. With that in mind, players aids such as 'who shot' were not considered or included.

Currently, it is very cat and mouse. Has he seen me, do I hold fire, will my ambush work? The current situation certainly doesn't reduce that fog of war. That said its probably reasonable to know who shot/used movement points in the last turn. I'll put that on the list of potential enhancements for the system.

David

[Xaver]

Maybe is a good add know who shoot, an unit can shoot but be unspoted for example.

A little question, is possible add defensive works to the concealment??? i refer if there is a trench in open terrain you cant know if is full of bad guys or is empty... maybe add this as an optional rule called "extreme FOG"???

I am doing something with scen editor and i have this problem, units are in trenches but terrain is open and enemy can see them even when they are in elevated terrain inside a trench.

Thanks.

[Strela]

Maybe is a good add know who shoot, an unit can shoot but be unspoted for example.

A little question, is possible add defensive works to the concealment??? i refer if there is a trench in open terrain you cant know if is full of bad guys or is empty... maybe add this as an optional rule called "extreme FOG"???

I am doing something with scen editor and i have this problem, units are in trenches but terrain is open and enemy can see them even when they are in elevated terrain inside a trench.

Thanks.

The way it has (deliberately) been setup is that bunkers & pillboxes will conceal units but trenches and improved positions don't.

We did it this way to represent the time it has taken to create fortifications and build reasonable camouflage and other subterfuge around it. Both improved positions & trenches can be created in game and are not considered to have the same amount of effort spent to conceal their presence.

David

[Xaver]

Ummm but at least is possible define an unit in non total open terrain (the terrain has some kind of defensive bonus, even by an IP or trench) as hide in the editor??? i refer do this as a scen designer choice.

I am playing a little with editor and well, i cant edit the map to give some grass, the only thing i can do is add IP or trench.

Thanks.

[Wodin]

Maybe is a good add know who shoot, an unit can shoot but be unspoted for example.

A little question, is possible add defensive works to the concealment??? i refer if there is a trench in open terrain you cant know if is full of bad guys or is empty... maybe add this as an optional rule called "extreme FOG"???

I am doing something with scen editor and i have this problem, units are in trenches but terrain is open and enemy can see them even when they are in elevated terrain inside a trench.

Thanks.

The way it has (deliberately) been setup is that bunkers & pillboxes will conceal units but trenches and improved positions don't.

We did it this way to represent the time it has taken to create fortifications and build reasonable camouflage and other subterfuge around it. Both improved positions & trenches can be created in game and are not considered to have the same amount of effort spent to conceal their presence.

David

Hmmm... David I think trenches that are on map at the start should still be able conceal the soldiers in them..trenches were used as away of getting closer to the enemy and taking him by surprise in Stalingrad..esp around the factory district. The Germans dug trenches\saps out towards the enemy so during an attack they could get as close as possible and not be subject to small arms fire, and also possible to take the Russians by surprise. If trenches didn't conceal men then in WW1 there would be no need to send out night patrols to see if they where occupied or not. Take the 1917 German retreat..it was hours before they realised the Germans had buggered off, same as Gallopolli when the Allies where retreating.

The player shouldn't know if the enemy held the trench ir not if they hand't fired from it. Adds suspense aswell.

[Aaron]

Ummm but at least is possible define an unit in non total open terrain (the terrain has some kind of defensive bonus, even by an IP or trench) as hide in the editor??? i refer do this as a scen designer choice.

I am playing a little with editor and well, i cant edit the map to give some grass, the only thing i can do is add IP or trench.

Thanks.

You cant change anything on the map, you need the map editor for that series which isnt included with the game for obvious reasons.

[Strela]

Maybe is a good add know who shoot, an unit can shoot but be unspoted for example.

A little question, is possible add defensive works to the concealment??? i refer if there is a trench in open terrain you cant know if is full of bad guys or is empty... maybe add this as an optional rule called "extreme FOG"???

I am doing something with scen editor and i have this problem, units are in trenches but terrain is open and enemy can see them even when they are in elevated terrain inside a trench.

Thanks.

The way it has (deliberately) been setup is that bunkers & pillboxes will conceal units but trenches and improved positions don't.

We did it this way to represent the time it has taken to create fortifications and build reasonable camouflage and other subterfuge around it. Both improved positions & trenches can be created in game and are not considered to have the same amount of effort spent to conceal their presence.

David

Hmmm... David I think trenches that are on map at the start should still be able conceal the soldiers in them..trenches were used as away of getting closer to the enemy and taking him by surprise in Stalingrad..esp around the factory district. The Germans dug trenches\saps out towards the enemy so during an attack they could get as close as possible and not be subject to small arms fire, and also possible to take the Russians by surprise. If trenches didn't conceal men then in WW1 there would be no need to send out night patrols to see if they where occupied or not. Take the 1917 German retreat..it was hours before they realised the Germans had buggered off, same as Gallopolli when the Allies where retreating.

The player shouldn't know if the enemy held the trench ir not if they hand't fired from it. Adds suspense aswell.

Let me be clear, my comment only relates to improved positions and trenches in clear hexes. These fortifications in rubble would be unseen and the units unrevealed until they expended movement points in LOS or were recon spotted.

David

[Wodin]

Maybe is a good add know who shoot, an unit can shoot but be unspoted for example.

A little question, is possible add defensive works to the concealment??? i refer if there is a trench in open terrain you cant know if is full of bad guys or is empty... maybe add this as an optional rule called "extreme FOG"???

I am doing something with scen editor and i have this problem, units are in trenches but terrain is open and enemy can see them even when they are in elevated terrain inside a trench.

Thanks.

The way it has (deliberately) been setup is that bunkers & pillboxes will conceal units but trenches and improved positions don't.

We did it this way to represent the time it has taken to create fortifications and build reasonable camouflage and other subterfuge around it. Both improved positions & trenches can be created in game and are not considered to have the same amount of effort spent to conceal their presence.

David

Hmmm... David I think trenches that are on map at the start should still be able conceal the soldiers in them..trenches were used as away of getting closer to the enemy and taking him by surprise in Stalingrad..esp around the factory district. The Germans dug trenches\saps out towards the enemy so during an attack they could get as close as possible and not be subject to small arms fire, and also possible to take the Russians by surprise. If trenches didn't conceal men then in WW1 there would be no need to send out night patrols to see if they where occupied or not. Take the 1917 German retreat..it was hours before they realised the Germans had buggered off, same as Gallopolli when the Allies where retreating.

The player shouldn't know if the enemy held the trench ir not if they hand't fired from it. Adds suspense aswell.

Let me be clear, my comment only relates to improved positions and trenches in clear hexes. These fortifications in rubble would be unseen and the units unrevealed until they expended movement points in LOS or were recon spotted.

David

Well the trenches around the factories where in what you'd call clear terrain as the went across the street and through gardens etc..

[Strela]

Well the trenches around the factories where in what you'd call clear terrain as the went across the street and through gardens etc..

My point is that this is only the case in what the game has marked as a 'clear' hex. Rubble etc is in ex buildings and that counts as concealment.

David