How do you improve PzB???

[Xaver]

Well, i need say that PzB engine is a great step forward, i feel it great to cover the fight scale but even a great thing is not perfect... i open this thread where cover all players suggestions/petitions to improve PzB.

Here are my 2 cents after the first contact with engine.

1- i feel the germans are not scpecially deadly at range in armored combat, i test many times a T-34/76 rush VS 2 Tigers and very few times Tigers kill at range one of them... and when do it only 1 tank before the 10 tanks be in the adjacent hex.

2- i feel the company HQ tank in companies is a little useless, because very rare times do something and is the first vehicle killed in a shot duel... apart this if you launch an air attack in a hex where you stack 2 armored units, one of them with 1 vehicle practically all the time planes only destroy 1 tank and is the alone tank, is more usefull attack an hex with 10 tanks in a single counter than attack 2 counters with 1 vehicle + x in the 2nd counter.

Possible solution:
I think that these 2 problems could be solved adding a new value in PDT, a bonus to increase the AT performance in tanks by side i see 2 options for example:

-armored units over 50% strength receive a 50% bonus to his fire power, under 50% only 25%.
-or oposite, over 50% a bonus of 25% and under 50% receive 50% bonus in firepower.

The idea is made more valuable good tanks at range and made that close range to shot at point black be more dangerous and increase the value of a single tank, many times a simple Stug destroy a lot of tanks when they attack not using very well terrain.


3- ZOC... i dont know if is possible add an optional rule to have a more restrictive ZOC

Possible solution:
I think for example if in an hex you have... lets see over 100 stack points (only count the unit stacked no the wrecks) you need use over 50% action points to enter in any hex around the stacked hex, a hex with high stacking for me could even stop an enemy unit that try flank it.


4- Maybe AI needs a refinement to made AI harder to beat in defensive... i refer to made that when an infantry unit is under 10 soldiers strength the AI now use these units to fire and well, defensive fire beat them hard... if AI doenst use this unit to fire or retreat them player needs waste more action points to destroy them and attack could be a little more hard.


Another important improvement for me is made more "visible" the units under divisional level, now you only see unit colour at division but this made that many times you be a lot of time doing highlighting organization to know where start x regiment and where start y regiment, same at the battalion level, at company level is not a true problem

5- i think game needs add another colour code to made more easy know who is who when you use zoom in at max level.

Possible solution:
I think at least in regimental level, maybe do it at battalion level (like in EAW), i think do like for example as in Flashpoint where you have in the counter corner the formation colour... maybe is possible do this at battalion level and to know the regiment use the background colour behind NATO/unit symbols a regimental colour.... divisional units dont need a colour or a regimental level... until they are set under one of this HQ.


This is not easy to do and maybe is not necesary, i dont know if you find like me many times missing with zoom in at max level and you dont know what is the battalion and regiment for that damn rifle unit

Dont understand me bad, game is great but the way to perfection is very long

[Tide1]

Xaver you have some very good points sir. I for one have always felt the command tank was always just battlefield clutter even when they where added in the Matrix version of The Campaign Series.
It seems they are here to stay though. as it was discussed in the teaser thread.

[Kuriltai]

1- i feel the germans are not scpecially deadly at range in armored combat, i test many times a T-34/76 rush VS 2 Tigers and very few times Tigers kill at range one of them... and when do it only 1 tank before the 10 tanks be in the adjacent hex.

Agreed.I have not played with the armor much yet,but it seems AT as well as Tanks have no real stand off capability.Not sure what the answer would be here.

2- i feel the company HQ tank in companies is a little useless, because very rare times do something and is the first vehicle killed in a shot duel... apart this if you launch an air attack in a hex where you stack 2 armored units, one of them with 1 vehicle practically all the time planes only destroy 1 tank and is the alone tank, is more usefull attack an hex with 10 tanks in a single counter than attack 2 counters with 1 vehicle + x in the 2nd counter.

Something to possibly consider would be to have the 10 Russian Tanks divided into two units of 5 each? Would this not increase German survivability at close range?
(I have played the Teterwino 2 Tiger scenario twice,vs AI, once from each side,each game the Tigers failed to survive.Russian armor losses at the end seemed reasonable,but when I played as the Germans, Armor kills were more from agressive Infantry assaults than Tank-AT fire.)

[Dog Soldier]

IMHO, Tigers are not supposed to survive. But that is just me when playing the Russians.

Dog Soldier

[Strela]

1- i feel the germans are not scpecially deadly at range in armored combat, i test many times a T-34/76 rush VS 2 Tigers and very few times Tigers kill at range one of them... and when do it only 1 tank before the 10 tanks be in the adjacent hex.

Agreed.I have not played with the armor much yet,but it seems AT as well as Tanks have no real stand off capability.Not sure what the answer would be here.

2- i feel the company HQ tank in companies is a little useless, because very rare times do something and is the first vehicle killed in a shot duel... apart this if you launch an air attack in a hex where you stack 2 armored units, one of them with 1 vehicle practically all the time planes only destroy 1 tank and is the alone tank, is more usefull attack an hex with 10 tanks in a single counter than attack 2 counters with 1 vehicle + x in the 2nd counter.

Something to possibly consider would be to have the 10 Russian Tanks divided into two units of 5 each? Would this not increase German survivability at close range?
(I have played the Teterwino 2 Tiger scenario twice,vs AI, once from each side,each game the Tigers failed to survive.Russian armor losses at the end seemed reasonable,but when I played as the Germans, Armor kills were more from agressive Infantry assaults than Tank-AT fire.)

Franz's incredible adventure is a difficult scenario if you play it 'like normal'. The Tigers will NOT survive if you leave them where they start. In real life Franz had two things going for him, the Soviets arrived piecemeal and he used ambush tactics whenever possible. We actually tested with random release by company for the Soviets but the games become too erratic and too unbalanced, particularly with the Panzer Grenadiers ability to assault. So the second thing is don't sit in the front hex once Franz opens up; I usually pull back south west which still allows me to shoot north but removes most of the Soviet return fire. That will make a huge difference to survivability for a couple of turns.

It's the volume of Soviet fire that kills the Tigers - particularly as it is usually 9 T-34's etc firing at a time.

The game does reward quantity. Nine T-34's firing at one to two hexes are going to have a much higher chance of a kill than two Tigers firing at four hexes. Even at one hex, two Tigers would be exceptionally lucky to get two kills. A full Tiger platoon (four vehicles) is getting into the realm of both multiple and long distance kills - but its hard to find four Tigers to put in one unit a lot of the time. With more tanks firing, abstractly you are reflecting flanking shots etc. Same with AT guns. Most are 3 gun batteries. They will be effective up close but much less so at range. This is why the Soviets built their Pakfronts to get enough volume of fire to slow a tank attack down. 3 50mm or 75mm guns will only work at relatively short range.

Long range fire does work. Combine two or more platoons of PzKw IV tanks and see what damage you can do, just don't expect to be plinking lots of tanks off beyond four hexes - its written the ideal engagement range was 500 - 750 metres. The Germans have a huge advantage with their larger Panzer Company size and that swings things back the other way when both sides armour faces off.


David

[Xaver]

The problem is that this is more tactical than operational and quantity is not a great thing VS quality... you need pay a big price to run over quantity something i dont see ingame, infantry is very well modeled and quality infantry do a good job VS lower quality infantry but in armor... problem is that at this scale 2 Tigers for example need be more problematic and need force soviet use better tactics, not simple rush, be in adjacent hex and destroy 2 Tigers paying only 2 or 3 tanks not very real.

I am doing more test and find that 10 T-34/76 D quality are more evective at 3 hexes than 2 Tigers A quality, even more, the 10 T-34/76 out of their effective range VS Tigers increase faster Tigers fatigue AND is not rare see them destroying the Tigers in village+IP!!!! 20% defensive bonus and destroyed by T-34/76 fire... really you dont see a problem when they can do this but Tigers only can score sporadical kills in the mission they shine???

I test this leaving 3 empty slots between the units, do the same with T-70 and i see how even them can stand at range without suffer critical casualties.

Of Course Panzer companies are bigger but i dont talk about company fights, i talk about 2 Tigers in perfect conditions to fight at range unable to stop 10 T-34/76 rushing to close range and see how the T-34/76 at range can score hits over Tigers with cover... i play a lot Steel Panthers i dont remember lose a Tiger over 15 hexes NEVER but i remember destroy a lot of T-34/76 specially when they move at 15 hexes... hexes of 50m, the same range i am using in test.

I feel the armored combat needs a touch, maybe add an optional rule to use a modificator in range combat... i dont see fair that soviets and germans use the same firepower modificator when fight at range.

EDIT: i do one more test... to kill 2 Tigers A quality with 20% bonus VS a rush of T-34/76 D quality you only lose between 0-1 tanks... i dont see very normal that 2 Tigers with T-34/76 in adjacent hex cant kill in 2 turns a single tank

[ComradeP]

The system has issues with dealing with attacks against small gun or vehicle units or high quality small units, it's also the case in Moscow '42, but it's probably hard to fix without breaking something else.

[Xaver]

I know but i am doing more test and maybe they are right, is a question of numbers, more tanks compensate a lot lower stats something not bad IF small number of tanks can increase their performance if historical they do it.

I do a test now with same ranges than in Tigers, 3 empty slots between units, SS units VS Guard units in 2 units of 10 tanks per side.

10 PzIIIm and 10 PzIVg VS 2 guard units of 10 Churchill, 10 turns, shooting all the time, result is around 6-7 german casualties VS 14-16 soviet casualites, here soviets have better armor and a good firepower but even PzIIIm do a good job, inferior to PzIV but good enough (around... 5-6 kills).

The problem is if i need have a full Tiger unit to deal true damage to enemy armor... whats the Tigers value??? 10 PzIV or 10 PzIIIm can do more than 2 Tigers even more, the PzIII and PzIV were tested VS stronger enemies in all aspect (hard defensive value and better quality) and facing an enemy in same numbers be able to win the shot duel.

I think the range combat modifier needs be divided in 2, one per side, and add an optional rule to buff the power of small armored units by side or nation, i dont see fair that good tanks be unable to defend from hordes or lower tanks because practically all test i do the quality tanks were unable to at least made enemy lose same amount of points they lose.

I know is hard do this but is the problem when you move down in scale but not enough down you have one foot in lower scale and other in higher scale... hard find the average position with armor, infantry works fine but armor is harder to adjust.

[Volcano Man]

In regards to that Teterevino scenario, no self respecting tanker will sit in one place and get shot at by massed fire. In that scenario, he should fall back immediately, limiting his exposure. That is the key too: exposure. You limit your exposure to the majority of the enemy force, and move to an area where you can get key hole or stand off shots.

Speaking of that particular scenario, I played it (against the AI mind you) and didn't lose a single Tiger, and the Russians lost 28 tanks. Of course most of the tanks kills were from AT guns and everything else, not just the tigers, but the key was falling back and moving around in the town between 5,11 and 6,11.

Beyond that, I think everyone agrees that kills in JT games have always revolved around numbers in firing unit and target unit, maybe some sort of separation can be made there one day for units < 3 vehicles or guns, that would certainly be an improvement. But the question has always been how?

That said, it would be nice if there were hull down mechanics at work, such as a tank on a higher elevation is considered to be "hull down" and has twice the protection. You never really see the effect in game (no status message on the unit, etc) it just inherently happens. But hey, I figure let's all play it a bit more before any actionable suggestions can really be made. ;)

Just my two cents...

[Wodin]

In regards to that Teterevino scenario, no self respecting tanker will sit in one place and get shot at by massed fire. In that scenario, he should fall back immediately, limiting his exposure. That is the key too: exposure. You limit your exposure to the majority of the enemy force, and move to an area where you can get key hole or stand off shots.

Speaking of that particular scenario, I played it (against the AI mind you) and didn't lose a single Tiger, and the Russians lost 28 tanks. Of course most of the tanks kills were from AT guns and everything else, not just the tigers, but the key was falling back and moving around in the town between 5,11 and 6,11.

Beyond that, I think everyone agrees that kills in JT games have always revolved around numbers in firing unit and target unit, maybe some sort of separation can be made there one day for units < 3 vehicles or guns, that would certainly be an improvement. But the question has always been how?

That said, it would be nice if there were hull down mechanics at work, such as a tank on a higher elevation is considered to be "hull down" and has twice the protection. You never really see the effect in game (no status message on the unit, etc) it just inherently happens. But hey, I figure let's all play it a bit more before any actionable suggestions can really be made. ;)

Just my two cents...

Isn't hull down something that might not really work at this scale of hex? Unless the game actually pinpointed each individual tank within a hex and maybe modeled minor elevation changes within the hex. Though if it was in using some sort of die roll for each tank to see if it is in a hulldown position it would be cool if we where told about it.